Singh Groove Test Engine – the Real Power Moves

[Warp Speed]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about singh grooves! Lol

[psychomotors]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about singh grooves! Lol

[CGT]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about singh grooves! Lol

Surely you wouldn't be implying that this thread (and many others now) are basically used as advertising?

[Warp Speed]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about singh grooves! Lol

Surely you wouldn't be implying that this thread (and many others now) are basically used as advertising?

[user-612937456]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about singh grooves! Lol

Surely you wouldn't be implying that this thread (and many others now) are basically used as advertising?

Wow dude are you so blinded by your delusions that you can't see that you have some of the smartest engineers, builders, race team assoiates, and machine shop owners n opperators that all give freely there time and efforts to pass along there wealth of knowledge to whomever is willing to absorb it. This forum is overwhelmed with people like this only to be contaminated by a few winy crybaby little bitch's to me this is my window in the huge ocean of the internet of reliable information and a wealth of knowledge that you will have a hard time finding anywhere else locally or on Al Gore's Interweb. Come to think of liberals you must..... well I'm not going to stoop further

[David Vizard]

Can we please calm down here - this is a tech forum not a site to tear each other apart. If we don't clean up our acts then this thread will get locked just like the others I posted to.
DV

[Walter R. Malik]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about Singh grooves! Lol

The way I comprehended the title of this thread ... it would be about the future of that particular ENGINE used for Singh Groove teasing.

AND, that seems to be exactly how this thread began.
Hopefully, it will end going down that same track.

[automotive breath]

Geez, a topic that stayed on topic- would that be too much to ask. Egoes

And what was the original topic or intent?!?

I'll give you a little hint.........it wasn't about Singh grooves! Lol

The way I comprehended the title of this thread ... it would be about the future of that particular ENGINE used for Singh Groove teasing.

AND, that seems to be exactly how this thread began.
Hopefully, it will end going down that same track.

I agree with warp, this is a A/B test.
A - baseline (first thread)
B - different cam, valves and rockers.

[GARY C]

I agree with warp, this is a A/B test.
A - baseline (first thread)
B - different cam, valves and rockers.

You are correct about the A/B testing but that is not what Warp is accusing DV of!

[automotive breath]

I agree with warp, this is a A/B test.
A - baseline (first thread)
B - different cam, valves and rockers.

You are correct about the A/B testing but that is not what Warp is accusing DV of!

I think I followed the conversation well and feel I understand the points that were made. In the end we will have two threads that received way more attention than one would expect from a cam/valve swap on a near stock ford engine.

[GARY C]

I am not sure how one would measure the amount of attention a thread should receive or what the hundreds of other members would be interested in, I for one would be far more interested in threads showing what power gains I could expect from modifying the 6 engines I have vs threads about $10,000.00 or $15,000.00 dollar engines.

[psychomotors]

Can we please calm down here - this is a tech forum not a site to tear each other apart. If we don't clean up our acts then this thread will get locked just like the others I posted to.
DV

Thank you DV. My ONLY meaning was that a lot of the threads end up waaay off track , sometimes pertaining to the subject and a lot of time not so much. I really don't enjoy the bickering(as I see it) . I don't always agree with what some of you say but I accept that as should you. I read many years ago that , if you ask 100 engine builders "how to build an engine" you are likely to get 100 different answers. That's an exaggeration but you get the meaning.

[prairiehotrodder]

Is today the big day? I'm sticking with my original guess. I'm sure it will be way off but i'm sure curious about who wins!

[David Vizard]

A holdup one the second round of dyno testing. It was scheduled this time around for today (Friday 18th) but that may be touch and go. Anyway the news is that this will be the next engine on the dyno so those figures we are waiting for are at least close to hand.

DV

[Stan Weiss]

So Terry and Jack at Walters engines did get to run the 306 engine last night. I could have posted a bland graph of the power curve but since I had to do a publishing quality graph I did not finish it until this morning . It will be in my SBF book as seen below.

Now for the winning HP and Tq numbers. The red curve is the final curve with the cam at 4 degrees of advance instead of 1. The target was 5 degrees but the setting of such was not convenient in the time available. This puts the winning numbers at 366 lbs-ft and 351 hp. The winner will be the one who has the closest number when the torque is added to the HP and this comes out to 717. I won’t be able to go through all the guesses till tonight so if you think you are the closest post your result and let’s see who gets a book.

Just in case you may feel concerned your ability for an output guestimation was less accurate than you supposed there is some consolation here. Terrys Dyno reads 2.7% under what the calibrated dyno’s at EMC did 3-4 years ago. We have torque tested it with accurate weights and a beam on a regular basis and it is always with 1 lb-ft in a 1000. The only thing I can think of here is that the special absorber (made in Terrys shop) must somehow have some dynamics which lead to slightly lower reading .

So, no prizes here but if that motor had been tested on the UNO dyno it would have probably returned 375 lbs-ft and 362 HP. If your guess was nearer these numbers then that should be some consolation in terms of your guessing ability.

OK lets analyze what was seen here so refer to the graph. The black dotted lines are the torque and HP for an otherwise stock long block (stock cam, heads etc.) with just the 10./5 compression Icon forged pistons but with dyno long tube headers. If my memory serves me well here I think a stock long block with factory header and exhaust system makes about 280 lbs-ft and one with factory headers and open exhaust as we tested here is about 300 lbs-ft. Bottom line here is that if, as a first time around, there is only a budget to build a good hi-compression bottom end then the results so are quite gratifying. Peak torque rose to 341 Lbs-ft and HP rose by about 65 to 285 hp. This would have made a great basis for a swap in cam, intake and heads as the funds became available.
The green curves are for the installation of an Edelbrock Performer (non-air Gap) intake. As mentioned I had extensively insulated the underside and the infra-red gun showed similar running temps to an air gap style intake (which has virtually the same runners). I have now had a lot of experience with this intake so here are my conclusions based on such. First this is a little more manifold in terms of port area then this build needs. Although it showed as good a low speed torque figure as the stock iron intake this was due to running much cooler thus producing a denser charge. As far as port velocity was concerned it was down on the stock intake. When such an intake is used on a bigger inch engine such as a 331 or a 347 we don’t see that low speed deficiency. The Performer out torques the stock intake everywhere. In terms of the power curve the Edelbrock just about matched the stock intake at our lowest readings but from there on up it just outpaced the factory iron. At the top end the power was up by 20 hp. Peak torque rose by 6 lbs-ft but once rpm rose that difference increased to over 20 lbs-ft. So from this we can say that even when used on a short block in a lowly state of tune the Edelbrock Performer produces.
Now for the cam and head swap. Would have been nice to do these separately but the team (Jack ,Terry and I) were basically up to our necks in alligators so such was not the most practical of moves. But non-the-less what we see here is what can be done by the installation of some larger valves and no more porting work then rounding off the sharp edges on the short side turns of both the intake and exhaust. Add a cam (same duration as stock) with more lift and on a LCA to optimize torque and we see some very useful gains.

When everything in terms of head capability is short of what you would like do not compound it by putting in a cam that further compounds the issue. Whatever heads you have you should always put in a cam that will maximize the torque from the heads being used. This is what was done here. The 108 LCA was about spot on for the combo. With the heads and the cam we see the output climb (red curves) to the 366 lbs-ft and 351 hp that will earn somebody a book.

Now I know there will be some who will point out that the top end output was slightly better at 1 degree of advance (blue curves) while the 4 degree of advance (red curves) produced a better torque curve. This was noticeably better in around 2800-3000 but this superiority hung on until the mid rpm range. My thinking here is that a 5.0 with a stock OD automatic would leave harder with the output from the red curve than the blue one so would deliver faster drag strip times.

If anyone is interested Terry has this motor turnkey at $3995. Go through some of the ads for motors from the big suppliers and you will see this motor out performs most costing well over $5000.

I’m sorry if this sounds like advertising but I need the money I make on this motor to finance the dyno testing of the long rod motor that is my next project. Sure Terry let’s me have dyno time at a super deal but the testing planned for the long rod 306 is still going to run about $1500. All of this you guys get the benefit of the numbers produced well before they go into my published book work.

DV

David,
Are you calling me an alligator?

Thinking about some of the things I have been called I guess that is not really bad at all.

Stan