500hp 331 with a Muthr Thumpr cam?

[fomocosteve]

Top end only or how broad a torque curve?
Bonneville or street?

think 378 cubes with a 7500 peak hp, max rpm 7800-8000 with a half decent curve. I'd rather have the capacity in the heads straight up than to replace a lot of hardware later, Have to keep it as a 354 initially to get it past engineer's certificate, then later (during it's freshen up) it would just be a bore, pistons, rings etc... and 378ci..
Thanks, Steve.

PS, I dont mind the look of those AFR 220 heads, or the 205 11R TFS heads from TEA

I think you have enough information here to build several engines, seems your trying to build something that is not buildable, good people are giving you what they think... you take it and then go...what about this then you change either the bore,,,then the stroke,or heads or a combination of everything...thennnnnn you say you cant go over a certain cubic inches cause you want to stay legal, but you will build your MAX cubes then make it bigger later??? WTF
Get a Budget and go from there, build yourself a nice 400/450HP engine and stick it into that Capri or Falcon and have some fun.. I think any more power will be too much engine for you.
Have you actually ever driven a car with even 350HP at the wheels,..I had a Big block 454 making a dyno proven 380HP at the tyres,275/60/15 (in a '67 Camaro)and at 100KM(60MPH) with 4 BIG guys in the car I could stand on it and smoke tyres for as long as I wanted .. or I was game to.
450 HP engine is plenty fun for a car that's a street and strip weapon..
If you don't know how to build the engine even a "cheap 450HP" engine here (Australia)is going to cost you around 10K for somebody to do it, and that's you supplying the basic parts,then you have a transmission, starting at about 3K, and a diff...and a converter and ignition system.. I run my own shop and I have spent over 30k on my driveline and I'm still not finished...
Horsepower isn't cheap and it definitely is not cheap this side of the American pond

A cheap 302 Windsor with a solid flat tappet and 10.5 to 1 comp, Dart iron heads or AFRs and a nice manifold will make all the power you need, itll runs 11s, smoke tyres, and you will not need a Cage in it, rego will be happy, engineer will be happy...
What more do you want?

I have a budget, It's 30k for engine, driveline, 9". The engineer will be happy and sign off on a 354. I was originally looking at doing it cheaper to save some money and use a mexican block. Though I kept hearing about standard blocks splitting north of 500hp. I then decided an aftermarket block was an option and that hell, I could spend the money, and that opened up a tonne of possibilities that just wasn't available with the standard blocks, plus I learnt about bigger strokes, I thought the biggest stroke possible was the 3.400 crank. I am in a position now in my life to build a car and I want and go drag racing, something I've been wanting to do since I was 11. I am now 45. How many times do you here of people building a car and later building another engine because the one they have isn't powerful enough for them anymore? I know I've asked a lot of questions, I know I have a lot of great information here. Possibly you are right, that I would be happy with enough power for 11's and to settle for a happy medium. I haven't built the thing yet, and I have considered that myself, though you can't have options, and the ability to implement them without the great information everyone's been so generous to provide, and I thank you all for that. But are you really flaming me for actually taking advice, listening, learning and then working through a combo with all the information people have provided me?
The engine and hp grew along with the knowledge I learnt here.

[MadBill]

Go for it! -You can always put a block of wood under the pedal to fine-tune the power...

[KnightEngines]

All good then.

It's helpful that ANDRA will now let you run well into the 9's with a bolt in cage, a good option is to register as a 2 seater & run a 4 point cage with bolt in front loops & intrusion bars so you can run on the street with the 4 point & bolt in the rest for racing.
The rego boys will allow a 4 point cage on the street if there is no rear passenger seat & it's registered as a 2 seater.

In Vic you could hit up James at MCE engines for the build - James knows what he's doing.
In Qld you can talk to Pete at HPE - again no fool & experience with windsors.

If you were in SA I'd offer to build it for you, but some people don't like to be 1000K's from their engine - understandable.

Don't guess/google parts, talk to a good engine builder & nut out the whole combo before you buy anything.

[fomocosteve]

Thanks, Knight, off to work. Cheer's.

[fomocosteve]

Okay, after racking my brain over heads, I am considering going down the Clevor path with a set of 220 cnc ported CHI heads. My goal is 600hp all motor, that's the goal now an aftermarket block is in the picture. Max power at 7800-8000. 12.0:1 compression, 3.470 crank, 4.0 or 4.03 bore, 8.2 deck Dart block. The CHI heads won't cost much more here than a set of imported AFR 205's or 11R's, and about the same as the P38 Kaase heads. But from what I can gather, I'd go with the CHI's.

[wyrmrider]

Which Chi heads? the V3's?
remember the more flow you have (more charge in the chamber opposite of restricted) the less compression you need or can use depending on fuel
go around again with those familiar with CHI head builds
post up the expected head flows
go around again on rocker ratios and cam
intake?
not 4 .125 x 3.25 (or whatever?)
actually it''s not going to make a big difference in a non heads up situation but...
is there a big difference in cost of the rotating assembly? IDK, just asking
Knight seems to know his way around the block...

[ap72]

I don't know what durability or cost matters in this build but a 4.125" bore with a 3" stroke would probably make this easier to build and may get a little more life out of the piston and cylinder walls. 600hp is still doable with that combo.

Please post progress photos and details on the build as you move along.

[fomocosteve]

Chi 220 pic.jpg

These heads have a 2.53 min CSA and are up to the task given the cubes at the RPM, they have 2.1 inlet and 1.65 exh valves, Cleveland canted heads so valve shrouding shoudn't be an issue even on a 4.0" bore.

chi 220 flow.png

[fomocosteve]

I don't know what durability or cost matters in this build but a 4.125" bore with a 3" stroke would probably make this easier to build and may get a little more life out of the piston and cylinder walls. 600hp is still doable with that combo.

Please post progress photos and details on the build as you move along.

Will do. This project will take about 12 - 18 months I'm imagining. The car is in Victoria and I'm currently in Qld, I'll try get some pics from the panel beaters.

Steve.

[fomocosteve]

I don't know what durability or cost matters in this build but a 4.125" bore with a 3" stroke would probably make this easier to build and may get a little more life out of the piston and cylinder walls. 600hp is still doable with that combo.

Hi, Durability matters, Cost, yes to a point, but quality for the application must be stuck to, I believe you pay more for cheap parts when you have to build the engine again after a failure. Piston speed I don't see as an issue, with a 3.470 crank it's aprox 4750 fps at 8200. The crank is internally balanced and rated to 1500hp so it should be happy at those rpms. I'll have to make sure the valvetrain is up to it. I've decided I'm going with a solid flat tappet, too much money to get into a decent solid roller with quality roller lifters, and they can be catastrophic to the entire engine if they fail. A SFT will still get it done with those heads, I'll try get a nitrided one for longevity.

[KnightEngines]

Back up on the stroke a bit if you're going to street drive, with a 3.47" stroke & 5.4" rod you're going to have a damn short piston, it'll get beat up on the street.

I'd go for the 4.125x3.25" combo at 347 cubes over the longer stroke 4" bore combo every time, the extra 7-8 cubes will not get close to making up the difference in valve shrouding & piston life.
Blocks cost the same whether you go 4" or 4.125" bore, bigger bore has many advantages.

[fomocosteve]

I thought I might go with a 8.7 deck and 5.7- 5.9 rods, depending on what I can comfortably get in there. A .030" overbore is probably worth doing, though I thought clevo's had 2.195 intake's from the factory so a 2.1 canted head wouldn't have been an issue.
Originally I was going 8.2 deck height so I could use the Headers I already have, though going the Clevo Heads I have to go custom headers anyway now, so 8.7 looks good for the rod issue.

[F-BIRD'88]

A solid flat tappet cam that can rev to 8200rpm will need a lot of spring pressure.
It will have a VERY SHORT service life on the street.. Where do you think all that metal cam lobe is going to go?
Unless you replace that cam and lifters often before they fail.
A flat tappet racing cam is not more Durable or cheaper in a full race application 8000 rpm)


This has gotten way away from a cool 500 horsepower "street strip" car. You are dreaming.

On a roller cam you just have to replace (or rebuild) the roller lifters.. On a racing flat tappet cam you will need to
use $$$ premimum parts use a very carefull cam lifter break in method and replace them OFTEN
Racing valve spring life will be about the same on both.

You will be lucky to get 8000 mile from a full race 8000 rpm capable racing flat tappet cam on the street.
Thats if you use all the tricks to extend its life.

You are dreaming and gotten way away from the truth. race cars make very poor street cars.

Go back to the cool 500 horsepower 10.5:1cr 331 CID 302w based combo. Its a street car, get real.

Get a big "street roller" cam for it. (max .400" cam lobe lift) inspect lifters every 1-2 years. set lash every 3 months. Change the oil once in a while.
Change the roller lifters and the valve springs every 4 years. (normal street machine driving and track days)
If you cannot find a bolt in roller lifter rev kit for the 302W block get one MADE for it.

Get real.


Ya ALL roller bearings need to be replaced once in a while,,, best before they fail. You read it hear first.
Thats why you will see roller lifters on the customer counter of EVERY speed shop --- engine shop everywhere.
BECAUSE they change out racing roller lifters and sell them to the kiddies.
Its is called routine racing engine service maintenance.
You will have to inspect and replace the drive shaft roller bearings in the U joints too.
Again best before a U joint failure.

[fomocosteve]

I'm going to assume that because you posted a lot of information in your post and because of your past post's your trying to be helpful, I don't think anybody likes being told to get real, I'll listen, I'm here to learn and get the best car possible, so I'll just take it your frustrated at where I've taken the build. I'm not sure, this may be a cultural difference thing, but if someone tells you to get real in Australia, theyr'e calling you an idiot.

I see what your saying about the roller lifters, point taken. I was turned off them by an aquaintence who's 347 required rebuilding twice because of a solid roller cam, Though I have no idea why the cams failed.

[ap72]

I'm going to assume that because you posted a lot of information in your post and because of your past post's your trying to be helpful, I don't think anybody likes being told to get real, I'll listen, I'm here to learn and get the best car possible, so I'll just take it your frustrated at where I've taken the build. I'm not sure, this may be a cultural difference thing, but if someone tells you to get real in Australia, theyr'e calling you an idiot.

I see what your saying about the roller lifters, point taken. I was turned off them by an aquaintence who's 347 required rebuilding twice because of a solid roller cam, Though I have no idea why the cams failed.

He is calling you a fool, and to think you'll get a solid flat tappet cam to do what you want and last on the street- you are a fool. Running everything as hard as you can will give you a very short life. That's just the facts. You're "street strip" engine is now a strip only engine that will require a lot of regular maitenance. Again, not sure if any kind of durability is desired. It could last a long time at strip only use. If you plan on driving it every day it may not last a year.