408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

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David Vizard
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by David Vizard » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:43 pm

cspeier wrote:I believe the power. As an example I have several as-cast 205cc SBF Pro-Filers on pump gas/HYD 347-351's that make 575+ and 470+..
Chad, I know you and I think along similar lines in many respects. My best pump gas street 347 made 562 hp and 472 Lbs-ft on Terrys dyno. I did run it on a local dyno and it made something like 582 hp and 485 lbs-ft. Have not used that dyno since as I know it is wrong!

BTW I have flow tested your new(ish) Ford heads and I am expecting some really stout results as both flow and port velocity look good. I expect to run these heads on a 427 street build. Down the road the dyno will tell the story but for now those Profiler heads look a hot deal.
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by 427dart » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:28 pm

David.. what are your thoughts on the TFS High Port 225 heads and have you used these in any builds?

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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by induction apprentice » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:08 am

Happy new year gearheads.

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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by Lenni AMC » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:55 am

David I´ve been reading your stuff for couple of years but I have read and own How To Build Horsepower Part 1 & 2 and they have helped alot with some tricks of getting more power on my builds.

One thing I would really like you to do is do an AMC build just one build for us AMC nuts. I know alot of the AMC enthusiast would enjoy that article or book.
Is that something you are open to do sometime in the future ? :shock:

Best Regards and a happy new year from Iceland
Lenni

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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by David Vizard » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:45 pm

blykins wrote:David, no need to private message me with anything. I just thought it would be a good exercise to try another dyno. It's not very often that you pull parts off the shelf and make 1.5 hp/ci...

Most engine builders/dyno operators aren't out to jip the general public with bogus numbers, but I've seen where an innocently misplaced weather station could offer up quite a few free ponies. There are 3 dynos in my area. There can be up to 70 hp difference between them and they are all calibrated....

Would you mind offering up the correction factor and the weather station data from this dyno session?

Actually i think it would be a good idea to PM you. There is some interesting Ford stuff on your site and I am doing a Ford book. I think we should talk.

Yes having a sensor in the wrong place can make for some optimistic #s.
A few years ago I was asked by Aston Martins historic race division to help break the 400 hp barrier with the 3 litre engine that was introduced back in the fifties and powers such cars as the Bond 007 car. The dyno curve I was shown when I got there indicated we only had to bridge the gap form 386 hp to 400. A step of a mere 14 hp. However on looking at the printout I noticed that the dyno testing was done in january and that the recorded ambient air temperature was in the low 80f range!!!!! Turns out the temperature was being taken from a point directly over the exhaust pipes! A check with the weather records revealed the true ambient temp to be about freezing point so the numbers were optimistic to the tune of some 40 hp. That meant I was supposed to find 57 hp not 14. A new set of ports and chambers plus some wet flow refinements with the Weber carbs and the intake manifold plus six months work resulted in a big torque increase plus 411 hp peak output. All would have been good but now the block life was reduced to an hour or so at the most.

Yes I will look through my paperwork to find what you need here. I may be a few weeks as I have quite a bit of preparatory stuff to be done prior to possible surgery at the base of my skull due to an accident at Brands Hatch in 1989 (44 G and no Hans device!). The dyno tests posted were done just before I had a series of run-ins with the ER department of which one resulted in emergency heart surgery. This year I only made it to PRI by the skin of my teeth. My good friend James Harris, a fire fighter with medic experience had to be with me the entire time. As a result I got to go to the show but was operating at half speed. I had on my list to visit Chris Straub but just simply ran out of time (sorry to have missed this opportunity Chris).

Just thought of another point concerning the flow curves I posted on the AFR heads a page or so back. Usually AF heads have above average intake valve discharge coefficients in the range right off the seat to about 0.250 lift. With average CD #'s a cam advance of typically 4 degrees is most often about it. However with an intake flowing slightly better than average at low lift the amount of cam advance required for max output is usually less. Here we had a situation where the intake valve geometry favored high lift rather than low lift. When the cam was set in at the traditionally accepted 4 degrees of advance it produced, as I expected, way less output. Making full use of the Jesel belt drive unit I use for dyno testing the cam was advance until the optimum was found. This proved to be right about 6.5 degrees advance. Power adjusting the cam advance to what the engine wanted rather than the cam companies best guess resulted in some 14 hp and 12 lbs ft to the better.
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by David Vizard » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:58 pm

Lenni AMC wrote:David I´ve been reading your stuff for couple of years but I have read and own How To Build Horsepower Part 1 & 2 and they have helped alot with some tricks of getting more power on my builds.

One thing I would really like you to do is do an AMC build just one build for us AMC nuts. I know alot of the AMC enthusiast would enjoy that article or book.
Is that something you are open to do sometime in the future ? :shock:

Best Regards and a happy new year from Iceland
Lenni

After all the work has been done and whatever parts can be sold off to help balance in and outging expenditure it costs around $30,000 to $50,000 to write a book on a POPULAR engine such as Ford or Chevy. It takes about 2-3 years to recoup that if it's a popular engine. If i did an AMC book I would never come close to recouping the time effort and money involved. That all said you can probably guess my answer here.

The best I can do for you is to read my flow bench/porting book and combine that with what you have learned from the How to Build HP vol I & II books.

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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by andyf » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:46 pm

I wrote my "How to build max-performance Mopar big blocks" for roughly $10K, but I had a head start since I had 10 years worth of magazine articles already in the can. If someone asked me to write a book on something other than Mopar big blocks I'd lose my shirt.
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by MadBill » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:03 pm

A friend of mine wrote and self-published a very technical book on race car engineering that was going to take many years to amortize. Printed off 500 copies (retailing at $120.00) and then found a horrendous math error that got carried over from an early version and which undermined much of the remaining text. He recalled and reprinted them all and commented: "Well, there goes my retirement motor home..." #-o
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by David Vizard » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:11 pm

andyf wrote:I wrote my "How to build max-performance Mopar big blocks" for roughly $10K, but I had a head start since I had 10 years worth of magazine articles already in the can. If someone asked me to write a book on something other than Mopar big blocks I'd lose my shirt.
Andy,
Finally someone who actually understands the situation. I am going to make a bet that the $10,000 costs you incurred did not count the hours of time spent actually writing the text.

In my estimation there are two principle reasons why more people don't write books. The first is they lack the will and determination to do a proper job and carry on right to the bitter end to finish it.

Secondly - they are smarter than we are in the first place so don't try to start on a questionable money making project with only a marginal chance of success.

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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by MadBill » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:29 pm

I was just a voluntary editor of the book I mentioned above, and still it absorbed an unbelievable number of hours over more than a year. One of the compensations though is that when you start to write about something instead of just talking, you find yourself being far more disciplined: digging deeper, questioning your long-held assumptions, researching more basic science, etc. It forces you to be better at your specialty!
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:44 pm

You need to require students to purchase the new iteratively revised text for the course.

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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by MadBill » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:49 pm

Uumm, there is a certain level of that that goes on even outside of achedemia...
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by ou812 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:28 pm

David Vizard wrote: A:- Agreed, but I am running 10/1 plus with moves that make the engine less demanding of higher octane fuel.


If I may ask, what moves do you make to achieve an engine that's less demanding of higher octane fuel? Our here in Ca., we have really poor fuel with 10% ethanol. I've been wanting to experiment with 87 octane fuel but not with customer's stuff....
Thank you!
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by MadBill » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:39 pm

One problem with running high-ish octane pump fuel (e.g 94 R+M/2 here) with the max possible 'safe' CR is that if you ever loan your vehicle to a GF or pal, he/she'll tank up with 87 and detonate the whee out of it... #-o
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Re: 408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

Post by ou812 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:54 pm

MadBill wrote:One problem with running high-ish octane pump fuel (e.g 94 R+M/2 here) with the max possible 'safe' CR is that if you ever loan your vehicle to a GF or pal, he/she'll tank up with 87 and detonate the whee out of it... #-o
LOL!
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