Weber Emulsion Tubes

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

71rocket
New Member
New Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:37 am
Location:

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by 71rocket »

chimpvalet wrote:
71rocket wrote:I need some advice regarding emulsion tube selection for twin 45dcoe on a 5ltr v8.I set these webers up by following info from the Redline book;36 chokes 160 mains,f15 tubes and 200 air jet.Plugs had good colour,good power everywhere but if I gave engine too much throttle at low to mid it would be like turning off ignition.I went to 220 mains and big improvement but black plugs and engine still dies but this time the cylinders are firing but no power til revs build.So I tried an f2 tube and that problem has nearly cleared up but still have black plugs.Now I'm thinking to go to a f5 f8 or f7 tube then bring the main jets back down to 160s........Any help much appreciated

Back on topic, per your initial post, it's likely the issue is down to how early the main circuits can be made to come in. You state good plug colour, good power until too much throttle down low. Unless ignition is substandard, as advised in one member's earlier post, then what you're looking for is making the best transition from slow runs to mains. You have a meaningful challenge here as the Webers, beautiful things as they are, are synchronous opening and therefore will not cover up jetting faults as well as a carb with vacuum secondaries. You can tweak the float height slightly off the conventional 8.5mm until you have fuel at 25mm in the well. That means main delivery sooner than at 26mm. Use the smaller of your venturi choices. If I recall correctly the F15 is a fatter F2, and will therefore help avoid richness in general. You can close the holes above static fuel height as they only serve to delay the mains arriving. I'll review the form of those tubes and get back with advice on which others you may want to close. Perhaps your accel jets are petering out too quickly? If so you can look into pump rod length, spring rate, delivery jet and exhaust jet sizes. Longer rod = longer shot, smaller delivery jet = longer delivery, closed or smaller exhaust jet = longer, softer spring = longer.

Cheers
And yes,looking into the pump side of things will be the next headache #-o
RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by RL »

On the IDA the idle screws are very sensitive, 1/8 of a turn and it goes from lean to rich.

Maybe screw the idles in as far as possible, while still making it idle, and then tackle the trans and main.

Look down the throats and see what rpm the mains start. It will tell you whether it's idle or main.
RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by RL »

71rocket wrote:I need some advice regarding emulsion tube selection for twin 45dcoe on a 5ltr v8.I set these webers up by following info from the Redline book;36 chokes 160 mains,f15 tubes and 200 air jet.Plugs had good colour,good power everywhere but if I gave engine too much throttle at low to mid it would be like turning off ignition.I went to 220 mains and big improvement but black plugs and engine still dies but this time the cylinders are firing but no power til revs build.So I tried an f2 tube and that problem has nearly cleared up but still have black plugs.Now I'm thinking to go to a f5 f8 or f7 tube then bring the main jets back down to 160s........Any help much appreciated
Is it idling properly, sounds a bit like a vacuum leak.
RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by RL »

I finally read the whole post. I figured it was an old Group C setup from Aust - seen heaps in the pits, ie Brocky -.

Image

The hole in the mid might be be mains coming in late, hence look down the carb and check the rpm -. Things like, you could be adding more jet which is compensating for a late main start while running an overly rich idle/trans circuit to fill the hole somewhat.

You really need to know the state of the engine first.
How's the ign, is the cam right - low cranking comp, retarded cam -. Have you run a Holley, and did it run right.

I've tweaked a lot of carbs, and when you understand what they do, they aren't that hard to get running quite well without any fancy stuff.

If you're in Syd I know a guy that runs Appendix J with a XU1 and Webers
71rocket
New Member
New Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:37 am
Location:

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by 71rocket »

Yep,thats the setup...I wish I could find the jetting used in the A9X Toranas .I'll bring fuel level up to the 25mm.I do have a Holley Street Avenger 670vac which was really driveable but just sluggish down low,so I probably should have used a HP series with adjustable air bleeds to deal with the low vacuum(7hg).The Webers made a huge difference so thats why I'm persisting with them.Something I dont understand regarding the idle jets(webers) is if wanting to go leaner or richer do I change fuel hole size or air bleed size and how does changing idle jets make idle circuit finish sooner or later????
RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by RL »

Those old setting are totally useless because we make an extra 100hp with the same stuff these days.

See what I mean about engine condition.
"low vacuum(7hg)" - is the cam retarded.
"Holley Street Avenger 670vac sluggish down low" - is the cam retarded. The Holley sounds like it needs more pump early, if it isn't the engine.

One size in fuel does the same thing as 2 sizes in air.

Don't muck around with idle jets, just the screws.

Idles work from 700-1200rpm, transfers 1000-1800rpm mains about 1600rpm onward
71rocket
New Member
New Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:37 am
Location:

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by 71rocket »

Funny you should mention cam timing cos about a year ago i lost a cam lobe so when engine was being rebuild I decided to upgrade camshaft and also add one of those Rollmaster timing sets that allow up to plus or minus 8 degrees.Anyway,The thing just wouldn't rev out,after a year of messing with everything else including a couple of grand on head work with no improvement I decided to check lift at pushrod and found inlet had 180thou lift at tdc rather than 60 thou.....idiot engine builder had timing crank gear one keyway out which equaled 36 degrees advanced,I re-set it to 00 as per cam card.Results....revs hard,more mid range,smoother idle but same vacuum at idle then I had to re do these webers all over again which brings me here.I asked this guy to make sure he puts a degree wheel on it, "yeah yeah yeah" he says like I'm an idiot,when I collected engine I asked if he degreed it,again "yeah yeah yeah". There's a saying,"happy customer tells three mates,unhappy customer tells everyone" ,which I did [-X
enigma57
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1989
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:59 pm
Location: Galt's Gulch

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by enigma57 »

Aside from jetting and emulsion tube concerns...... Take a look at your manifolding and how the Weber side draught adapter plate interfaces with it.

And your throttle linkage. Most of these dual DCOE adaptations to plenum style intakes are configured so as to use a progressive throttle linkage. To do otherwise would be much the same as opening all 4 throttle bores on a 4bbl down draught carb simultaneously.

Of course, with your DCOE carbs positioned to either side rather than one to the front and the other to the rear...... With a V-8 engine, that places both primary carb throttle bore openings on one bank and both secondary throttle bore openings on the other bank. The usual 'fix' for this is either to use an open plenum style intake or if using an intake having a center divider in the plenum...... To remove (lower) the center divider by at least an inch.

To further complicate matters, the Weber side draught adapters I have seen have no internal center divider. So when the progressive throttle linkage opens sufficiently for throttle bores of both carbs to open, you not only have an abrupt 90 degree change of direction in flow from horizontal to vertical at the adapter plate / manifold interface...... You have a train wreck where the two opposing directions of flow (from left and right) converge as they enter the plenum.

An interesting solution might be to modify your DCOE carbs so that each has a primary throttle bore and a secondary throttle bore which opens progressively. That way, both DCOE carbs will function much like a split 4bbl carburettor when mounted on your adapter.

This is a modification that is done by Corvair Performance Parts for their single DCOE draw through turbo setups......

http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/html ... etail.html

http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/corvhome.htm

And as Corvair engines are a bit over 1/2 the displacement of your 5 litre V-8...... A pair of DCOE carbs configured in this way should give you the drivability you seek once you fine tune them to your engine. This should work well on either a dual plane or single plane open plenum intake. If using a dual plane intake though, you might consider leaving the manifold center divider in place and adding a center divider to your Weber DCOE adapter. You will still have the abrupt 90 degree change of direction from horizontal to vertical where flow enters the plenum...... But you will eliminate the train wreck where without a center divider, flow from the left and right bank throttle bores merged previously.

Just an idea,

Harry
RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by RL »

I'm sure they would have got it close a second time, but if it's 10:1 with a 250º hyd it should have about 180psi cranking with open throttle - I don't really know what setup you have -.

The usual with the 308/5.0 is to deck the block 0.050" to zero deck and you still have heaps to mill off the head for 10:1 with L34 valves. Otherwise it's 0.180" off the heads.

I was thinking progressive, but if you have a dual-plane with divider it won't work.

Screw the idles right in until it barely runs, then screw them out just until the motor changes note. If the mains come in too late, so that there is a hole in power, you will need a smaller choke or a higher float level.
71rocket
New Member
New Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:37 am
Location:

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by 71rocket »

Yep,0 deck height on block and from memory the YT heads have 160thou removed.And yes you're right,the linkages are progressive,start and fully open same time but different rates which after a light cruise gave me two overly lean cylinders each side until I lowered the divider.Come weekend I'll raise fuel level that 1mm and see what happens.I did fit f8 etubes and 220 mains which from all I've read is too much for 36 chokes but the motor has never gone better unless I give it too much throttle too early it dies off a little.But friends with DP Holleys tell me theirs does same thing when in higher gears and low rpm so maybe its just me being fussy.
RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by RL »

Now that we know it has the correct comp mechanically, you can do a cranking comp test. Yank the ign, open the throttle, and test.

If it's over 160psi, the cam is right.
If it's under 140psi, the cam could be wrong.

Look down the throats and see at what rpm the mains start to dribble, and if your cruising rpm is lower than that, you are only running on the transfers - small holes above the throttle blade -. You either can richen the idles jets to richen the transfer, or you can make the mains come in earlier - mains should be 1500-ish rpm -.

You can put a 1" open spacer in there if you want more plenum.
71rocket
New Member
New Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:37 am
Location:

Re: Weber Emulsion Tubes

Post by 71rocket »

PROBLEM SORTED.A Weber pdf posted by WPH states that shared cylinder webers need much bigger mains,bigger mains need richer etubes.36mm chokes with 225 mains goes good.Then I tried 38mm chokes with 245mains went better still..........Does anyone want to buy two Holleys :P
Post Reply