CNC porting...is it worth it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:43 pm

What Jay has mentioned is a growing trend. The key is finding the right shop that is interested in keeping your data 'proprietary'.... ET Performance in Michigan is one I can think of.

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:23 pm

Todd H wrote:You can digitize in the machine tool itself. The downside is that you tie up your spindle. You can't make money if the chips aren't flying. Your best bet in my opinion is to go with Haas, best bang for the buck.Todd H

Todd,

Yes I agree about tying up the spindle to digitize, .. but this discussion is based around a smaller shop not doing high production work, .. I think it's OK. Besides, .. IF it is an out side job you're charging for digitizing too.

What Haas model will do the job best? 10,000 rpm spindle, .. table size?

I'm thinking, .. if I can get a used Haas or Fadal for say, $65K, Mastercam for $15k, .. spindle digitizer for $??? and 4th & 5th axis table for what $20K??? with tooling, .. that's around $125K ?????

Does this sound far fetched????????????

Sending out to other shops is only a temp solution, .. that $1500 paid to the CnC shop needs to stay in-house. Two $1500 jobs a month and you've made the machine payment.

Curtis

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:03 pm

Cboggs,
They was talking about doing 150 heads a year. Now if they charge $1000 for a pair times 150 sets that is $150,000 a year. Times that by 5 years which is the average lease on a machine tool that is around $750,000. What is the cost of the Machine, Tooling etc? To me it looks like a good investment if you are willing to learn how to use the machine.

Darin,
What feed rate are you guys machining the heads at? It should be a F.. command in the program. It is a Fadal with the Fadal Control or the Seimans Control.

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:36 pm

Donovan,

Yea, I agree, .. I'm all for it . .. I don't think my shop could keep it busy
just on our in house custom work, .. so I'd have to pull in some out side contract jobs, ..

Does my thinking, machine wise, .. sound right to you??
A Haas, a spindle digitizer, 4th & 5th axis table, Mastercam software, ..
is this a good direction???????????

Care to share some specifics on the equipment?????

Software, .. ???? Mastercam or Surfcam ??? others?????

Curtis

Todd H · Post by **Todd H** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:57 am

You "might" be able to get away with doing heads on a Haas VF-3. Depends on what you have in mind. If your looking to do some V-10 stuff then you probably need to look at a VF-4 or larger. Most people who have done cylinder head porting on a Haas have used a HS-1-5AX, this is a horizontal machine. If I was going to do it from scratch today I would probably look at a VF-4 or VF-5 with a trunnion table. The VF machine will gives you more flexability to do other jobs (non multi axis) than the HS-1 by simply removing the trunnion table. The VF-5 has a riser in the added from the factory that gives your tools more clearance. The downside of this is that if your not using the trunnion table you might need a riser block for your vise or longer reach tools. Master Version 9 was upgraded specifically with 5 axis work in mind. Spindle speeds need to be 15K if your wallet can stand it, you could probably get by with 10K with slower cycle times. If I'm not mistaken Haas also offers a 30K spindle but I'm not sure what the cost is. If money is no object then I would look for a machine with a 4th axis in the spindle and a rotary table. Also know some people who use Unigraphics software for this but I don't know anything about it. I would be curious to hear Darrien's take on 5 axis porting as well. Todd H

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:38 pm

Todd,

Thanks for the reply, .. good info.

Yea, I've found some good deals on the Haas VF-4, .. the table i'm not to sure about. As you can tell I'm just learning about all this, .. so the help you guys offer here is great, .. can't thank you enough.

I have a friend at Sonny's that uses Surfcam, .. so as a source for support using Surfcam might be the smartest thing, .. although I looked hard at mastercam at the PRI show and liked it, ..

Any more info ???

Like, the VF-4 has a spindle speed of 7500, .. will this work but just slow the production time or are there other problems?

Curtis

Todd H · Post by **Todd H** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:13 pm

Curtis, the std spindle will work ok, you'll just have to slow down your feed and you won't get as clean a cut. You will have to run more lead-lag angle with the slower rpms as well. The key to making this all work is a good software package with a correct post processor. Be advised that Surfcam requires a yearly maintance fee if I'm not mistaken. You get all the upgrades but they hijack you once a year for it. I would try to go with Mastercam if possible, if your happy with the version you have then they don't require you to pay the yearly fees. Also be aware that there are pirated versions of software available. Don't expect to get any tech support if you go this route and you could be held accountable for using it if the right person finds out. I would buy the software outright and if necessary pay the maintance fees till it all worked properly. Todd

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:54 pm

Todd,

Again, thank you.

I understand about the spindle speeds, .. I've found some VF-4's with a 10,000 rpm spindle, .. what about doing two passes?
Like a first rough pass then a second pass with a low feed and fine step over, .. that would get a nice finish wouldn't it?

Yes, legal software, .. I'll need the support so I wasn't even going to concider "borrowing" it. A freind using Surfcam can be a blessing if I get stuck and need a cylinder head guy to help me through, .. but Mastercam seed to have a grasp on it, .. but I don't know anyone using Mastercam to port heads.

They both have a yearly fee, but like you said Mastercam doesn't require it.

What about rotary table or set ups for the 4th & 5th axis???

Curtis

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:42 am

How about a Fadal 60/30 and a Haas 5th axis tilt / rotary table TR310??

With this combo, a spindle digitaizer & mastercam or Surfcam, .. will this do a good job and not take 6 months to get cutting?

I've been told Renishaw doesn't make the spindle digitizers any more, ..
this true????

I've also been told the Haas tilt tables wear our gears fairly fast?????
CnC heads said their table is the best one, of course.

Darin, .. how did you guys handle this??????????

Curtis

la360 · Post by **la360** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:23 pm

I don't CNC port cylinder heads, but I have been a cnc machinist for close to 10 years. I am only just startig to get into 5 axis machinig myself, I operate a 5 axis Chiron machining center, so if you are a little concerned about the workload you have, you could always do other work on the machine. In regards to spindle speeds, I would look into what the tooling you are going to be using is rated at, although, I would generally lean toward the fastest you can afford.
Higher spindle speed=Higher feed rates - Quicker turn around
I personally don't like Mastercam, although I am not using the lastest and greatest version. I have found Surfcam to be a little more user friendly, and UniGraphics is probably the best 3D software I have come across. UniGraphics is widely used over here, and is very powerful as to what you can do on it.
IHTH's
AL...

Darin Morgan · Post by **Darin Morgan** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:34 pm

cboggs wrote:How about a Fadal 60/30 and a Haas 5th axis tilt / rotary table TR310??

With this combo, a spindle digitaizer & mastercam or Surfcam, .. will this do a good job and not take 6 months to get cutting?

I've been told Renishaw doesn't make the spindle digitizers any more, ..
this true????

I've also been told the Haas tilt tables wear our gears fairly fast?????
CnC heads said their table is the best one, of course.

Darin, .. how did you guys handle this??????????

Curtis

We have all three types of digitizers from Reshow. We still use them for guide location programs and finding XYZ zero on the fixturing as well as centering the entire multi axis fixture when we have to take it off and put it back on. If you want a spindle digitizer I know Keith Wilson has one for sale that was used about three or four times.

We make the machine pay for itself by doing other things besides heads. We have two machines and one machine does manifolds, reversion plates, stud girdles, manifold tops,bolt lugs, and about a hundred other things. That one machine can spit out 750 stud girdles a year and that alone more than pays for both of them. The head machine runs most of the time but its job is to do a bunch a little stuff like chambers and bowls on twenty sets of brodix heads for the Super Series engines. We have made it take the place of three or four head porters. That's about how many guys I would have to hire if it where not for that machine. Just CNCing heads will not cut it in my book. Excuse the pun. You have to do other jobs for the machines to pay for themselves.

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:08 pm

Darin,

Thanks for the reply, .. and yea, that's what I feel too, .. must do other stuff. The guys at CnC heads are telling me a good CnC head guy will stay busy with contract work, .. well I'm not sure about that.

yes at the show most of the good contract CnC shops are months behind, .. the not so good ones where looking for work.

For me, .. if I can spend say $150K, .. nice machine, spindle digitizer, ..
4th / 5th axis table, .. I'd be OK with that, .. but $300K means I'd have to make payments to support the machine, .. that I don't want.

I like doing the R&D work, .. tinkering with heads, .. I don't want to become a machine opperator and never do R&D.

Darin, what software are you using????????
And yes I'd be interested in your friends spindle digitizer, .. how much?

BTW, .. just got to say hi for a second at the PRI show, .. but enjoyed you talk at Superflow.

Curtis

Darin Morgan · Post by **Darin Morgan** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:55 pm

cboggs wrote:Darin,

Thanks for the reply, .. and yea, that's what I feel too, .. must do other stuff. The guys at CnC heads are telling me a good CnC head guy will stay busy with contract work, .. well I'm not sure about that.

yes at the show most of the good contract CnC shops are months behind, .. the not so good ones where looking for work.

For me, .. if I can spend say $150K, .. nice machine, spindle digitizer, ..
4th / 5th axis table, .. I'd be OK with that, .. but $300K means I'd have to make payments to support the machine, .. that I don't want.

I like doing the R&D work, .. tinkering with heads, .. I don't want to become a machine opperator and never do R&D.

Darin, what software are you using????????
And yes I'd be interested in your friends spindle digitizer, .. how much?

BTW, .. just got to say hi for a second at the PRI show, .. but enjoyed you talk at Superflow.

Curtis

My friend is Keith Wilson of Wilson manifolds and you can contact him and ask him personally about that digitizer. kwilson@wilsonmanifolds.com
The thing is brand new without a scratch. Call me and I will give you some pointers on using it before you blow the Z lock out of it and spend $2500.00 to fix the thing your first week. We use Mastercam but I would not recommend it. I would go with Surfcam. Its much more user friendly when generating solids or working with splines. They do have software that can take the point cloud and generate the solid from that without all the hassle but that's all it does. You still need a good CAD workstation for all the other stuff you will be doing. .