Which EFI and coil-on-plug ignition with crank trigger?

[glenn999]

OK - - lets assume you're replacing a 2.0 Ecoboost engined 2013 Ford Fusion's ecu with a Megasquirt, the intention being to increase over all performance on a street driven vehicle - - this being a direct injected turbocharged 4cyl 16v with twin phaser operated camshafts

I would call this next to impossible if performance is not only engine power.

[xr4x4ti]

This topic is so insanely off topic now that I don't feel bad asking my own questions and adding my own observations I am hoping I can get some opinions from the experts on here that know way more then I do about this subject.

I have been having all but a mental breakdown lately about many of the questions and ideas this thread has been covering and I have been eating it up. I started a similar thread over on the YB http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showt ... ?t=1254738, but I will simplify my question a bit here.

Some observations from this thread:

There are a few saying use OEM hardware whenever you can
-some say the OEM hardware is getting to complex or has other limitations.
Others say use aftermarket
-but only if it has a better control model
-others say the control model doesn't matter
- Some say use a MAF, others say there is no need.

I am have run and am running into all of these issues. Back in the late 90/early 2000 I had a turbo 4 banger that I tuned with a Electromotive Tec2 and then a Tec3. These would both be what I would call "simple" systems without a lot of flexibility or bells and whistles. They were also VE based (mostly, lets not get into the details of what defines VE based, it didn't have a simple pulse width table). Being a total novice, I had my car running pretty good and at least from an EFI standpoint the car was reliable and wouldn't have been afraid to drive it in different weather conditions without a laptop. This puts a point in the simple and VE based category boxes.

When I converted the car to a turbo V8 the AEM EMS (V1) had just come out that seem to have every feature known to man and was the poster child for flexibility. The engineer in me got tingles just thinking about the possibilities and the decision was made to use that to run the new engine. That started two years of hell and almost giving up on the project. First the AEM EMS is NOT VE based. The basic fuel table is a simple PW table. This IMHO makes the table incomprehensible and totally useless to the weekend tuner. There was a trick to make it work like a VE based system using one of the endless modification functions, but it still wasn't nearly as simple to tune as the TEC was. The super flexible input never quite liked the Ford TFI module so I had to convert the car over to crank trigger, mount some LSx coils, etc, just to make it sort of work. But the biggest PITA was the fact that no matter where I put the IAT sensor, it never compensated correctly for changing conditions. I didn't dare drive the car any distance without a laptop. It also had an inherent problem with the acceleration enrichment on large CI engines. I only recently found out they later made a fix for this and it wasn't my lack of tuning skills. I even brought the car to the local AEM certified turning house. It ran great when I left, but the next day it got cold and damp and it wouldn't leave the driveway. This also puts a point in the simple and VE based

After getting fed up with the AEM, I said to myself, there are all of these Ford guys driving and having fun with there cars with just kludging together "calibrated" MAF's and larger injectors. Why am I making this so complicated. So I went out and got a stock Ford A9L ECU, an SCT BA2600 MAF and a device to modify the OEM tune. Within days I had the car running better then it ever had and after a few months of street and dyno tuning I drove the car for YEARS without hooking up a laptop in all kinds of weather from the hottest summer to the coldest winter days. I guess this puts a few points in the OEM hardware box.

But now I am starting to hit the limits of the stock ECU that a few mentioned as I am trying to turn up the wick a bit. A few examples are:
-It can't read the airflow I am now starting to push, so I have to "scale the tune" which starts to make the tables less obvious.
-It can only handle a load of 200%, so if I want to run over 15psi boost I once again have to "scale" the tune which makes the tables (especially timing) less obvious.
-It won't turn quite the RPM I want
-It won't do close loop wideband O2 control
-It has not extra inputs for data logging, so I need an external device
-It has no extra functions like boost control, so I need external boost control, ignition box, etc.

I was OK with most of this until I got it in my brain that I want knock detection/control. The only obvious way to add it to my current system is to add a J&S Safeguard which seems to get stellar reviews. I see JohnP is watching this thread, so maybe he will chime in. But then I am adding another box to the system along side my boost controller that I do not love. If I sold all my stuff I have now, I can easily pay for the difference between the price of the J&S and a MS3-pro or the Holley HP ECU's I am looking at. I would never consider a motec because of price

But now I am feel like I might be doing something stupid and screwing up my perfectly running car and will back into a year of hell getting the new system tuned, etc. One appealing attribute of the MS3-pro is that you can use a MAF sensor with it. I don't quite understand why MAF's are not more popular given the extremely high flow MAF's now available. The slot MAF I have now will easily handle the 800+ crank HP I want to eventually shoot for and the car idles just fine.

So, should I ditch the OEM computer? Should I go speed density or keep the MAF? What ECU that is affordable? I will never give AEM any more of my money.

[mk e]

The better aftermarket ECUs allow you to add complexity only where you need it. The less good aftermarket ECUs allow you to have a poor running engine if complexity is required to get it running good.
Pick your poison right?

Please, we need to know which aftermarket ecu falls into what category, otherwise a very expensive guessing game results, with the likelihood a disgruntled "tuner" may then badmouth all systems - -

I like motec personally because I've had very good luck with them starting with the haltech I replaced with a motec 10 years ago that I mentioned a few posts back. I used to use haltech and I still like them when budget is a big concern and they do the basics pretty well IMO, but they don't have the ability to add complexity (aka subtle changes) that motec has. I have a couple buddies I trust that swear by Bosch, but I've never personally used one so it's second hand.

[dieselgeek]

I'm a fan of most of the modern aftermarket ECUs. My personal favorite is the MS3Pro - Megasquirt has been around for over a decade, and those guys always helped me if I needed some feature that wasn't there.

OK - - lets assume you're replacing a 2.0 Ecoboost engined 2013 Ford Fusion's ecu with a Megasquirt, the intention being to increase over all performance on a street driven vehicle - - this being a direct injected turbocharged 4cyl 16v with twin phaser operated camshafts rated at 240hp and 270 ft/lbs

Approximately how much for the Megasquirt ecu - - can it use Ford's existing transducers - - approximately how long to physically fit and adapt the Megasquirt - - and how much time to dial it in?

I realise much will depend on the "tuner's" skill level, experience, and performance desired, but it's this leap into the unknown that discourages many otherwise innovative and hard working enthusiasts

You're flying blind in this case. You COULD do it with megasquirt, to my knowledge, but it would be what I call a "Science Fair Project." The first problem is Direct Injection. (my personal opinion is, it's a waste of time for making big power). However the MS can control the twin cam phasers no problem, I've done this on Coyotes, Jaguars, GM LS and Atlas engines no problem. PWM/PID control too.

All the transducers can be used with most of the aftermarket ECUs. But being DI, you're likely to want to start off with the aftermarket software for retuning the OEM ECU. Get ready for headaches!!!

(or install port injection in the intake runners, support more power, leave the DI alone, and run the port injectors and ignition with the MS)

[glenn999]

My $0.02

There are a few saying use OEM hardware whenever you can
-some say the OEM hardware is getting to complex or has other limitations.

I would keep the OEM stuff for moderatly tuned engines ie not dedicated racecars. Especially new stuff (DI/funky valvetrains/turbo(s)/CAN communications).

Others say use aftermarket
-but only if it has a better control model
-others say the control model doesn't matter

It is quite easy to overcomplicate things..

- Some say use a MAF, others say there is no need.

If the OEM maf system can be retained and the power levels are within reason why not keep it?

[turboivo]

The better aftermarket ECUs allow you to add complexity only where you need it.

I am a lot more used to OEM stuff. That is what is done. The issue is that the complexity is never reduced...

I would really like a good stable aftermarket system where it is really simple to add custom functions.

The new motec M1xx stystem has that....but you need to buy the development package which is ...$5k I think I was told? and that lets you customize ECUs

then an M150 is $4k
then the development license for the ecu is $2k I think it was (the base FW license is $800, $1200 for the race package)

I decided the custom functions I thought I needed weren't really needed.

Have you seen the engine lab stuff:
http://www.enginelab.net/
http://enginelab.net/support_tree.php?f ... m_Overview

I've never tried one but I keep thinking I should.

They have lots of i/o with a 96 or 140 pin version....I think the last time I asked (maybe 3 years ago) the 140 pin was $3500

If one needs more custom strategies without additional costs, this one could be a good choise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R58LX2I7xkc

I guy in Holland (Adaptronic dealer) is running all kinds of V8 diesel engines and even petrol DI on the 1280 unit.

[Leftcoaster]

After getting fed up with the AEM, I said to myself, there are all of these Ford guys driving and having fun with there cars with just kludging together "calibrated" MAF's and larger injectors. Why am I making this so complicated. So I went out and got a stock Ford A9L ECU, an SCT BA2600 MAF and a device to modify the OEM tune. Within days I had the car running better then it ever had and after a few months of street and dyno tuning I drove the car for YEARS without hooking up a laptop in all kinds of weather from the hottest summer to the coldest winter days. I guess this puts a few points in the OEM hardware box.

But now I am starting to hit the limits of the stock ECU that a few mentioned as I am trying to turn up the wick a bit. A few examples are:
-It can't read the airflow I am now starting to push, so I have to "scale the tune" which starts to make the tables less obvious.
-It can only handle a load of 200%, so if I want to run over 15psi boost I once again have to "scale" the tune which makes the tables (especially timing) less obvious.
-It won't turn quite the RPM I want
-It won't do close loop wideband O2 control
-It has not extra inputs for data logging, so I need an external device
-It has no extra functions like boost control, so I need external boost control, ignition box, etc.

Good example of how an oe ecu may support all but the most extreme engine performance improvements

SCT's hardware and software was mentioned previously; glad the oe ecu worked for you until requiring what, double the original engine's hp?

Care to identify the " - - device to modify the OEM tune"?

It seems possible the ecu and transducers from the direct injection 2013 Ford Fusion mentioned, plus SCT hard & software, might be a reasonable choice for similar spec engines PROVIDED the direct injection feature could be modified to port injection

And yes, in accord with the OP, Ford's 4cyl engines have been COP since the late '90's

[mk e]

If one needs more custom strategies without additional costs, this one could be a good choise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R58LX2I7xkc

I guy in Holland (Adaptronic dealer) is running all kinds of V8 diesel engines and even petrol DI on the 1280 unit.

That's AWESOME! Looks like labview adapted to and ECU. I know a guy running an engine off labview and a PC BTW but not very practical.

Have you tried one? I'm wondering how robust everything is? I might need to buy one of those to play with.

[JohnP]

...I see JohnP is watching this thread, so maybe he will chime in. ...

So, should I ditch the OEM computer? Should I go speed density or keep the MAF? What ECU that is affordable? I will never give AEM any more of my money.

MS3 Pro looks like the way to go. Full featured, low cost, with integrated knock control, data logging, and unlimited support.

[JCR]

OK - - lets assume you're replacing a 2.0 Ecoboost engined 2013 Ford Fusion's ecu with a Megasquirt, the intention being to increase over all performance on a street driven vehicle - - this being a direct injected turbocharged 4cyl 16v with twin phaser operated camshafts rated at 240hp and 270 ft/lbs

Approximately how much for the Megasquirt ecu - - can it use Ford's existing transducers - - approximately how long to physically fit and adapt the Megasquirt - - and how much time to dial it in?

I realise much will depend on the "tuner's" skill level, experience, and performance desired, but it's this leap into the unknown that discourages many otherwise innovative and hard working enthusiasts

You can see an Megasquirted Ecoboost here: https://www.facebook.com/ecoboostcobra
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=48040

[Leftcoaster]

You can see an Megasquirted Ecoboost here: https://www.facebook.com/ecoboostcobra
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=48040

Thanks

I've no doubt Megasquirt and numerous aftermarket ecu's can be substituted for the oe system, but at what price?

Until I see the costs of ecu, software, and the tuner's estimate of how long it takes to install and tweak the aftermarket system compared to reflashing and tweaking the oe ecu to all but "race" specs, I'm forced to conclude few practioners are seeking a cost effective performance increase

Why is this cost factor being ignored?

[turboivo]

If one needs more custom strategies without additional costs, this one could be a good choise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R58LX2I7xkc

I guy in Holland (Adaptronic dealer) is running all kinds of V8 diesel engines and even petrol DI on the 1280 unit.

That's AWESOME! Looks like labview adapted to and ECU. I know a guy running an engine off labview and a PC BTW but not very practical.

Have you tried one? I'm wondering how robust everything is? I might need to buy one of those to play with.

Hi,
No I haven't tried one personally. But you could contact the dutch people at :
http://www.adaptronic.nl/home/ecu-and-t ... e1280s-ecu
Ruud is your man. He runs the diesel engines on different cars and trucks. You can check their projects.
You may also check the Adaptronic forum for the product support. It is great just like on the MSExtra forum. And Andy is a great guy too.

[mk e]

Thanks

I've no doubt Megasquirt and numerous aftermarket ecu's can be substituted for the oe system, but at what price?

Until I see the costs of ecu, software, and the tuner's estimate of how long it takes to install and tweak the aftermarket system compared to reflashing and tweaking the oe ecu to all but "race" specs, I'm forced to conclude few practioners are seeking a cost effective performance increase

Why is this cost factor being ignored?

You should have very strong doubts that aftermarket ecus can be substituted for OEM if you are looking at anything but HP as the acceptance criteria...modern cars run REALLY good when they leave the factory and that is REALLY hard to duplicate.

When I'm doing a clean install I figure:
1-2 hours to mount the ECU (if its a PNP you're now ready to tune)
4-30 hours for the harness depending on whether is just a main connector swap or a full re-wire
2 hours for the basic ECU setup to rough everything in.
2-4 hours for basic systems checks to make sure all the signals are clean, timing checked and the cals correct in the ECU and such
4-8 hours to get it to where starts and drive and is ready to go to the dyno

This is where you get to jump is if you're using an OEM ecu.

2-4 hours to get the main fuel and spark tables in good shape if its an NA setup
8-32 hours to get the fuel and spark in good shape if it's a boosted setup

This is where you're done if its an OEM ecu or race car

2-8 hours more dyno time (or 3-4 times the hours to do it on the street) to sort out the accel/decel enrich/derich
4-8 hours invested over several months to get the warmup stuff fully sorted (unless you have a dyno in an environmental chamber)
2-4 hour to to get the idle control sorted invested over several days to confirm at warm and cold
then whatever time to setup whatever other stuff you want the ECU contolling

This means you're looking at 50-80 or 100 hours of shop time, with labor at $100/hour so the install and tune is $5k-$10k.

To me its just plain silly to make that kind of investment and then skimp on the material costs.

materials run $500 - $3000 depending on ignition choice + the ECU

If I'm installing a motec for someone I give a fixed quote and guarantee they will be happy, if it's a haltech they get a fix quote and "best effort" on the tune and I explain where they are likely to see the difference any between the haltech and motec on their setup. If they want something else I tell them to find someone else more familiar with what they want because I'd have to do it as time and material and couldn't promise anything and I don't want then unhappy.

I don't do reflashes because the cars I work on didn't come with ECUs so someone else will need to chime in with costs there.

[Leftcoaster]

Thanks for your post Mark

Clearly, a professional installer mimimises labour requirements, an enthusiast hardware costs - - hence the dramatic difference in each group's hardware budgets

Anyone willing to confirm/deny the success of reflashing an oe ecu to enhance street performance with mildly modded vehicle without throwing codes or failing emissions tests?

[dieselgeek]

Thanks for your post Mark

Clearly, a professional installer mimimises labour requirements, an enthusiast hardware costs - - hence the dramatic difference in each group's hardware budgets

Anyone willing to confirm/deny the success of reflashing an oe ecu to enhance street performance with mildly modded vehicle without throwing codes or failing emissions tests?

Mild mods with an OEM ECU platform that is well supported in the aftermarket (GM LS engines and HP Tuners, for example) can do impressive things.

BUT...

looking at Mark's timeframes above? I have to disagree wildly with some of them.

First, in the case of a complete wiring job - say, on a car that's been gutted and a fresh build, can be 40 manhours to install.

Second - if it takes your tuner that many hours to get solid drivability - find a new tuner. I spend MAYBE an hour on the dyno for WOT spark and fuel tables, and that's after a maximum of 20 minutes building spark and fuel tables before the dyno. Usually from first start to finish on the dyno - maximum we pay is 2 hours dyno time. I did this last weekend at Lingenfelter's in IN - two hours in and out. That included part throttle drivability, finding MBT at multiple load/rpm points. I'll post a video soon of that car and how it runs (with a cam that idles 7" of vacuum, but is' 100% street driven, seldom sees the track), and the owner says he can tell no difference between how it ran with the OEM ECU (as far as startup, drivability) other than it makes twice the power. Presuming that OEM drivability can't be achieved easily with a standalone ECU is wrong, it just means your tuner needs a little more instruction or experience.

Then we worked on cold and hot starts after the dyno. What I do is make sure I train the end user on the basics so if they want to improve minor details, they know how to data log the issue and send it to me, and they also know how to "add" or "subtract" fuel for things like cranking, accel enrichment, etc. Standalone EFI isn't that hard to tune! it's hard to install.

That's my experience, your mileage may vary.