460 Ford block real world experience

[Flo]

Hi,

I am currently planning a Ford 460--> 520 cui build. Will be in front of a TKO in a 69 Mustang; driven ahrd on the street, some 1/4 mile passes. Hydraulic roller RPM probably not more than 6000, 6500 max. Block is a 95 truck block.

Do those blocks really benefit from a main girdle or conversion to 4 bolt mains like those:
http://www.atechmotorsports.com/parts/mil-11450
Or is this a waste of time and money?

Best regards
Florian

[DaveMcLain]

For your application absolutely a waste of time and money. Any production two bolt block will easily handle that sort of use.

[Walter R. Malik]

For your application absolutely a waste of time and money. Any production two bolt block will easily handle that sort of use.

YEP ........ but, if you detonate it, all bets are off.

[ProPower engines]

The newer blocks are thinner and more flexable then the older blocks for sure.
While t6hey share the same casting number as the pre 70 and the the mid 70's block's they are thinner.

I did a 557 for a customer about 2 years ago with a kit he supplied and the engine block used was from a 94 F-450 truck and the block flexed so much the block plugs would fall out while we had it under load on the dyno.

This was just a 2 bolt block stock caps with ARP stud kit used.I had to use redi-seal rubber block plugs to finish the session but in the end threaded the holes for screw in plugs.
After a couple seasons of play he came by this summer and the block plug holes had developed cracks around them and were weeping slightly and they were sealed with good epoxy to start with.
The plan this winter is caps and girdle on an older 70's block to get rid of the issue

A girdle may just do the job to stiffen the block up with stock caps but an known older block would be the best way to go and have it sonic tested as the bores are much bigger then conventional over sized pistons would be.

[Walter R. Malik]

The newer blocks are thinner and more flexable then the older blocks for sure.
While t6hey share the same casting number as the pre 70 and the the mid 70's block's they are thinner.

A girdle may just do the job to stiffen the block up with stock caps but an known older block would be the best way to go and have it sonic tested as the bores are much bigger then conventional over sized pistons would be.

First, earlier 385 series blocks, (except for the Cobra Jet blocks and Boss blocks), have no thicker cylinder walls then any of the later blocks. Their thickness is all over the place; some are thick and some are not, early or later, with no rhyme or reason at all.
Dave MaLain, who posted here, had a big block Ford block "summit" a few years ago and sonically measured many, many blocks from all eras which were brought to his shop by many different racers and vendors.
Now an earlier block can certainly show a lot more rust erosion inside the water jackets for a pin hole to show-up and they do have .200" shorter cylinder walls so the pistons can come out of the bottom even farther.

Second, most girdles will certainly tie everything together by the main fasteners but the "easy to install girdles of today" won't make anything measurably stronger. In order to make anything STRONGER the caps need to be faced flat on the backside so the steel span of a flat girdle spanning that cap can be in contact with the cap for the entire cap width. Most of the girdles on the market today however, will keep everything together after breakage.

Up to 700 lb/ft of torque even a correct girdle is pretty much a waste of money on a 385 series big block Ford unless detonation is involved when running.

DON'T use main studs without a CORRECT steel girdle as this will transmit more harmful vibration and stress to the block and caps, And, they are not as elastic as FORD bolts.

[wyrmrider]

Stock heads or?
headers or stock exhaust?
what intake?
Carb (s) or FI?
compression?
tight quench?
nitrous?
it depends but you should be fine unless you answer yes to the last question
if you keep the quench tight and no detonation (good tune)

[ProPower engines]

The newer blocks are thinner and more flexable then the older blocks for sure.
While t6hey share the same casting number as the pre 70 and the the mid 70's block's they are thinner.

A girdle may just do the job to stiffen the block up with stock caps but an known older block would be the best way to go and have it sonic tested as the bores are much bigger then conventional over sized pistons would be.

First, earlier 385 series blocks, (except for the Cobra Jet blocks and Boss blocks), have no thicker cylinder walls then any of the later blocks. Their thickness is all over the place; some are thick and some are not, early or later, with no rhyme or reason at all.
Dave MaLain, who posted here, had a big block Ford block "summit" a few years ago and sonically measured many, many blocks from all eras which were brought to his shop by many different racers and vendors.
Now an earlier block can certainly show a lot more rust erosion inside the water jackets for a pin hole to show-up and they do have .200" shorter cylinder walls so the pistons can come out of the bottom even farther.

Second, most girdles will certainly tie everything together by the main fasteners but the "easy to install girdles of today" won't make anything measurably stronger. In order to make anything STRONGER the caps need to be faced flat on the backside so the steel span of a flat girdle spanning that cap can be in contact with the cap for the entire cap width. Most of the girdles on the market today however, will keep everything together after breakage.

Up to 700 lb/ft of torque even a correct girdle is pretty much a waste of money on a 385 series big block Ford unless detonation is involved when running.

DON'T use main studs without a CORRECT steel girdle as this will transmit more harmful vibration and stress to the block and caps, And, they are not as elastic as FORD bolts.

I have tested many blocks as well and they they vary alot from block to block and year to year but up here at least I see it the other way.
The older mid 70's blocks seem to be the better option and there are some much better then others but component choice is important as you already know but even the best block can still have issues.
The girdle support must deal with the outer block as well as the cap area and yes the generic girdles out there do not really address this issue at all. Although I did a 440 recently that had a generic girdle that was well made and used the outer block as well as the cap area to hold it together but it did need steel replacement caps on all 5 mains but they were designed much taller so minimal machining was needed to reduce the over height to fit flat ( within .001 ) of the pan rail.

An after market block would be the best way to go but like always the customer most times has his own block to start the game with till he's told its too thin or what ever to make it unsuitable to use but we can blame that on the advertising of the crank kit sellers. They all claim that it will fit most years of block without modifications but no mention of other requirements that are needed.

[wyrmrider]

ProPower
are you discussing Ford or Mopar?
on your bolt vs stud comment
X2 Think of bolts and studs as elastic strong springs that must stretch- too stiff and there is insufficient stretch

[ProPower engines]

Mostly Ford but was just saying there was decent girdle kit for a mopar that the design would be good for use on a ford block.

For a change an off the shelf kit that was complete and well made and closer tolerances then most that use a handful of spacer washers to get support to just the main cap fastening hardware location without consideration for the rest of the cap.

[Walter R. Malik]

I have tested many blocks as well and they they vary alot from block to block and year to year but up here at least I see it the other way.
The older mid 70's blocks seem to be the better option and there are some much better then others but component choice is important as you already know but even the best block can still have issues.

You may very well have tested many blocks but, certainly have not learned much about the big block Ford 385's as the mid 70's blocks are no better option.
What would you suggest for someone to do with circumventing the .200" shorter bore of the early blocks and the piston sticking out the bottom to the middle of the wrist pin on a 557 alleviating any ring seal which might have already occurred and very well will never be fully recovered...?
Mopar and Ford blocks definitely do NOT share the same traits and are totally different as to their structure ... Ford Motor Company didn't deliver any different OEM production blocks to different parts of North America as they were all cast in Wisconsin, Windsor or Cleveland and originally assembled in Lima, Ohio.

[ProPower engines]

Based on blocks that have been pulled in our wrecking yard personally and checked not so much.In the 30 years I have worked at the wrecking yard and stripped core engines by the 1000's I have seen more strange things then 50 guys would ever see.
Just saying that all ford trucks do not always have the engine the tag says it should.

Funny how that goes when an engine comes to the yard in a car/truck and its supposed to be the right one by the numbers tags and other ID locations and for some reason the factory installed something different.

We have got 1000's of wrecks from people that were local original owners and never had the engine replaced or apart for that matter and they did not have what was believed the dealer sold them with.And in tons of cases the owners kept every single piece of the original paperwork they got when then truck was new.

I am just going by the year of vehicle the core came from and since the old and new blocks have the same casting numbers for the most part it may be possible some were replaced in there life at some point but the blocks I have seen did not have the problem you suggest they should.

That said the later blocks could have been used with the older top end as a replacement but again most checked were std bore making me think they would be original. Now thats not to say that Ford them self did not use the newer block for a replacement engines for 70's to early 80's trucks. The D9TE block is the most common found here and while the D9 and E7 casting numbered blocks were both used from the 70's till 97. The C8 C9 and DOVE blocks were very different.

They used the D9 block till 1998 as they did the E7 blocks so we are still talking about the same block casting number from the 70's.

[D.S.R.E.]

I built a 521 for a good friend of mine and we did a couple things trying to help the two bolt setup live longer and so far so good
in this condition he was running 9.20's at 147mph in a 3200lb fox body mustang
its a early 80's block filled to the bottom of the water pump holes
We Are using ARP main studs with No issues and no cap walk yet
All oil passages were blended and radiused and we used a FMS filter adapter that I modified
For more flow, stock blueprinted ford oil pump setup
we bored the block to 4.39 and torque plate honed it
crankshaft is a Scat forged Blem crank that was ground 10-10
Main Bearings are 3/4 groove speed pro's main clearance is .003-.0033
Rods are Howards Aluminum 6.80ol, rod clearance is .0036-.004
customer got a good deal on these but they were not my choice I wanted BME forged Aluminum rods fwiw
pistons are SRP flat tops with light tension oil rings
Used comp roller 260-268* @ .050 .727" lift 108lsa 108ilc
Comp lifters with direct lube option, used pushrods 8.55ol
used crane gold 1.73 stud mount rockers and used stud girdles
Used old A429 heads previously been ported by a crack head
lol I completely redid the heads and milled them down, compression was 13.2:1
Port size is 320cc flowing 370's at .700lft 250ex at .700 some howards roller spring's 250lbs seat 700lb open
2.25intake valve 1.76ex valve turned to 1.73 to gain radial clearance
old 4500 pattern Ford Motor Sport single plane was butchered by previous owner redone by myself
1050 dominator methanol for fuel, home built headers 2" primary 3.5" collector
5200stall pg trans and 4.30 gears shifting at 6k
the engine had enough torque to destroy 3 nice converters and it took a lot of work to get the car to somewhat hook ok
we took it out a month ago and made some changes
bigger cam 276-284@.050 .725 net lift 112lsa 110ilc and 1.8 rockers
more head and intake port work
Milled heads got compression to 13.5:1
we are about to go dyno it and see what it does for power but im pretty sure this will be close to the limit of a 2 bolt 460 block
we are already planning on moving to a 18 bolt block and going for over 600cid but for now
its beer budget racing lol

[Walter R. Malik]

Based on blocks that have been pulled in our wrecking yard personally and checked not so much.In the 30 years I have worked at the wrecking yard and stripped core engines by the 1000's I have seen more strange things then 50 guys would ever see.
Just saying that all ford trucks do not always have the engine the tag says it should.

Funny how that goes when an engine comes to the yard in a car/truck and its supposed to be the right one by the numbers tags and other ID locations and for some reason the factory installed something different.

That said the later blocks could have been used with the older top end as a replacement but again most checked were std bore making me think they would be original. Now thats not to say that Ford them self did not use the newer block for a replacement engines for 70's to early 80's trucks. The D9TE block is the most common found here and while the D9 and E7 casting numbered blocks were both used from the 70's till 97. The C8 C9 and DOVE blocks were very different.

They used the D9 block till 1998 as they did the E7 blocks so we are still talking about the same block casting number from the 70's.

The The D9 block was used through the end of production in 2000 and there is no E7 big block Ford block. In any case, it sure was NEVER used in any OEM production 70's Ford vehicles. The most produced and COMMON Big Block Ford block casting number is D1VE used through 1978 in millions of cars and trucks and you didn't even mention it; which, by the way, is the older block architecture in every way with the shorter length bores however, it has a thicker, (not scalloped) oil pan rail of blocks earlier than this.

Your misinformation abounds...and certainly muddies the water of actuality.
You can live in your own delirium from here on.
.

[Walter R. Malik]

I built a 521 for a good friend of mine and we did a couple things trying to help the two bolt setup live longer and so far so good
in this condition he was running 9.20's at 147mph in a 3200lb fox body mustang
its a early 80's block filled to the bottom of the water pump holes
We Are using ARP main studs with No issues and no cap walk yet
All oil passages were blended and radiused and we used a FMS filter adapter that I modified
For more flow, stock blueprinted ford oil pump setup
we bored the block to 4.39 and torque plate honed it
crankshaft is a Scat forged Blem crank that was ground 10-10
Main Bearings are 3/4 groove speed pro's main clearance is .003-.0033
Rods are Howards Aluminum 6.80ol, rod clearance is .0036-.004
customer got a good deal on these but they were not my choice I wanted BME forged Aluminum rods fwiw
pistons are SRP flat tops with light tension oil rings
Used comp roller 260-268* @ .050 .727" lift 108lsa 108ilc
Comp lifters with direct lube option, used pushrods 8.55ol
used crane gold 1.73 stud mount rockers and used stud girdles
Used old A429 heads previously been ported by a crack head
lol I completely redid the heads and milled them down, compression was 13.2:1
Port size is 320cc flowing 370's at .700lft 250ex at .700 some howards roller spring's 250lbs seat 700lb open
2.25intake valve 1.76ex valve turned to 1.73 to gain radial clearance
old 4500 pattern Ford Motor Sport single plane was butchered by previous owner redone by myself
1050 dominator methanol for fuel, home built headers 2" primary 3.5" collector
5200stall pg trans and 4.30 gears shifting at 6k
the engine had enough torque to destroy 3 nice converters and it took a lot of work to get the car to somewhat hook ok
we took it out a month ago and made some changes
bigger cam 276-284@.050 .725 net lift 112lsa 110ilc and 1.8 rockers
more head and intake port work
Milled heads got compression to 13.5:1
we are about to go dyno it and see what it does for power but im pretty sure this will be close to the limit of a 2 bolt 460 block
we are already planning on moving to a 18 bolt block and going for over 600cid but for now
its beer budget racing lol

The question IS ... what did you NEED to do and what did you do because you FELT the need to do it. Keeping it out of any detonation and not using to much ignition timing are the keys and building overkill into that engine won't HURT anything; it is simply a waste of money which could be spent elsewhere.

I personally have built supercharged big block Ford engines with 2 bolt blocks with merely a steel strap across the machined flat cap which produced well over 1,300 horsepower and lived just fine. I have been involved with ones making a lot more power than that.
After 100 or so drag boat runs one did develop a crack in the nodular OEM Ford "offset ground" crankshaft. But, since the original build, forged steel aftermarket cranks became easily available.
YES ... before 2004, every big block Ford engine which didn't use a custom steel crankshaft made from a 429 truck crank or the Ford "Pro Stock" raw forging or maybe a billet crankshaft used an OEM Ford nodular iron crankshaft.

I understand the WANT to over build and thus ward-off any future potential problems but, that is totally a personal decision as it is just NOT needed for any big block Ford OEM block below 850 horsepower.

[Lem Evans]

The newer blocks are thinner and more flexable then the older blocks for sure.
While t6hey share the same casting number as the pre 70 and the the mid 70's block's they are thinner.

I did a 557 for a customer about 2 years ago with a kit he supplied and the engine block used was from a 94 F-450 truck and the block flexed so much the block plugs would fall out while we had it under load on the dyno.

This was just a 2 bolt block stock caps with ARP stud kit used.I had to use redi-seal rubber block plugs to finish the session but in the end threaded the holes for screw in plugs.
After a couple seasons of play he came by this summer and the block plug holes had developed cracks around them and were weeping slightly and they were sealed with good epoxy to start with.
The plan this winter is caps and girdle on an older 70's block to get rid of the issue

A girdle may just do the job to stiffen the block up with stock caps but an known older block would be the best way to go and have it sonic tested as the bores are much bigger then conventional over sized pistons would be.

Was this engine mounted from the production motor mount bosses or were plates used at the front and rear?