SBC 408 cid, is 600 hp unreasonable N/A

[Strange Magic]

Should ALL DRAG CARS HAVE A GLIDE?
If not ,then why not?

Here is the answer to your question.

The 2.45 in a turbo as opposed to a 1.96 in a glide (and I highly recommend this) and 1 to 2 numerical gears higher in the rear end will kick the shyt out of any turbo in the performance arena. It carries 38 pounds less of reciprocating weight and is as strong as an ox when build properly, not to mention it is a cake walk to drive. THESE ARE THE FACTS! Now lets not get carried away here and start sizing up 10K transmissions, because you know and I know that we are not comparing apples to apples at that point! Don't even go there!

If you build an engine whereas the average HP over a 1300 rpm curve is within striking distance of the peak number, you will flat out fvcin fly down a race track. That junk box in the picture has an average that is within 18hp from the peak number over a 1300rpm curve. Big cams, big manifolds and your industry standard thought process will get you the opposite results.

[Strange Magic]

For the topic starter..........................you just simply need to make more power.

[vortecpro]

6.90 @ 1700 pounds = 1080 HP give or take a few HP before you consider

You must have oxygen deprivation from the altitude your at, or your smokin some real good shyt. Your average digger now weighs nothing less than 1930 pounds, especially some of these 4 link TD rides. The digger I spoke about in Colorado at 7.48 weighed in at 2065 pounds. The pic below is of a 3185 pound ride with a small block, 408 cubic inches, wet sump and a glide with a single 750 carb, normally aspirated and it can hammer the 60ft at 1.19. 5.57 and 8.78@153 mph, and that was over 14 years ago. It will probably be a turd at denver and with a gear change, jet change, leave chip change, and some timing it most likely will rip off 9.33 to 9.36 et's, and that's with a glide and a small block. while your busy walking around the pits taking notes, i'm behind the wheel. Your information by your posts, is warped to say the least and it just indicates to me that you do more watching than doing. Your library of knowledge is not far off from that roll of toilet paper.

What MPH did this 2065 pound bracket dragster run?
The Olds, 2.18 HP per inch with a single 750 carb, not sure what to say about that, other than is that possible 10 years ago?
Fast 10 inch tire heads up NA 400 inch cars run 8.40s @ Denver, 24.20 baro
Next month while your figuring out your dial, I will be running the points meet.

[nevdos]

Ok lets back up here
A couple of things we don't know
1-what cc were the heads chambers actually measured to be?
2-how far in the hole are the pistons and what thickness head gasket? What bore size gasket?
We need to verify true 13-1 or so compression
3-What AFR heads are they? The street, race/or competition ported 210's
Also are they the new Eliminator series 210's, or the old style?
4-Was the cam degreed and what is it in at?
5-How are you setting valve lash?
What ratio rocker are you using?Possible more rocker ratio has made valvetrain unstable?
6-Whats total timing and is it locked out or?
Have you verified trans is properly filled and not slipping at all?
Fuel psi.volume?
Exhaust collector length s you stated open headers?
7-Tire psi?
8-If leaf spring car-Pinion angle?
There is a ton of stuff that can be holding car back form achieving results wanted.

[Charvelrhoads]

A couple of things we don't know
1-what cc were the heads chambers actually measured to be?
2-how far in the hole are the pistons and what thickness head gasket? What bore size gasket?
We need to verify true 13-1 or so compression
3-What AFR heads are they? The street, race/or competition ported 210's
Also are they the new Eliminator series 210's, or the old style?
4-Was the cam degreed and what is it in at?
5-How are you setting valve lash?
What ratio rocker are you using?Possible more rocker ratio has made valvetrain unstable?
6-Whats total timing and is it locked out or?
Have you verified trans is properly filled and not slipping at all?
Fuel psi.volume?
Exhaust collector length s you stated open headers?
7-Tire psi?
8-If leaf spring car-Pinion angle?
There is a ton of stuff that can be holding car back form achieving results wanted.

1Head chambers not cc'd using manufacturers numbers
2Zero decked, right to the top. .039 Felpro 1014, 4.2" bore
3AFR 1103 Eliminator racing head
4Yes it was degreed, 104 I/C
5Feeler gage, warm engine, opposite cylinder ex. closing. 1.52:1 Comp chrome moly roller rockers
6Locked out, total 36 degrees

Trans is not slipping, and has correct fill.
Fuel psi 7 lbs. WOT engine/fuel pump kill carb bowls are full
No collectors
13 lbs
It is leaf spring, unknown pinion angle

[Walter R. Malik]

Now, IMHO the op has ~550 horsepower with 550 horsepower heads. I'm not kicking AFR, I know nothing about them, but a 210cc head belongs on a smaller engine, or a street driven car.

I know head cc's isn't everything, but what head would any of you head porters or engine builders recommend for a bracket race 4.165" bore engine?

That 210cc port is NOT to small ... maybe not shaped optimum or efficient enough but, certainly not undersized for that that engine combination.

[monzadude]

Trans is not slipping, and has correct fill.
Fuel psi 7 lbs. WOT engine/fuel pump kill carb bowls are full
No collectors
13 lbs
It is leaf spring, unknown pinion angle[/quote]



So basically "zoomie" style headers?

[Josh92]

What would you recommend for pistons and rings? I should be in the neighborhood of 13:1 compression now.

I can't stress enough how important compression is in an engine. It is for that reason, although not the only reason, as to why many fall short of their expectations. The words "should be" or "I think" tell me that this is an area that someone did not take notes from proper findings. Concrete statements such as "my chamber is 58, my cubic inch is 408, my piston to deck is .005 and my gasket is 4.180 x .041 with a positive 4 cc dome" will indicate to me that someone has done there homework in an area that has a large impact on the outcome of an engine.

When building for drag, if that's what it is, you should highly take into consideration that if the application is on race fuel, than max out that compression for the given race fuel that you would have been on anyway. Sunoco blue or VP's C-14 will just about allow you to go to the max limits of what the engine can max yield for compression. In the case of this 408 sbc, I personally would have shot for 14.4-14.7 for a weekend bracket warrior. The power gains are huge if it's currently sitting at 12.8-13.0, and that's a big "if".

A simple .043, .043, 3mm with a vac pump will yield 45 to 55hp when the two are combined together, and that's with the same compression ratio as what you are running now. The gains are immense. We provide performance products into our builds in our shop and to the industry as well, everything from custom pistons, ring packages, wrist pins....ect.

Here is one that is in my shop right now. This picture was taken about 7:00 last night and I continued on with it port matching the super victor, washed it and installed it, and the valve covers and split the shop at 11pm last night. It is much the same as you are describing. This one is 3.750 stroke and a 4.060 bore with a mild roller cam, AFR heads and pistons that yield 14.2 for compression. It's just a street beater, although it has been 10.50's in a street 68 Camaro, and now it has more work done to it.

now that is how a engine shop should look!


As for is 600 reasonable it certainly is, port match intake/heads, clean up the runners and bottom line.... it needs to be properly tuned, either with a wideband or on the engine dyno.

we made 450 hp at the wheels on a 10.5:1 dart headed 406, car went 7.26 on alcohol weighing in @ a whopping 3800 lbs with a 355 gear and a th400, stalling at 4800 with a 28" tire with a 230lb driver in a friends 88 monte carlo LS

It is all about combination, although with your elevation im not sure if those numbers are too off of what your looking to see.

Like everyones said, without the missing information it is impossible to diagnose your problem

on a side note, my 650 horse big block has a smaller cam then this small block o.o

[user-9274568]

406 cid
standard rings, NO vacuum pump
1 3/4 headers, 33" long
RHS 23º heads 2.08/1.600
my SSR rework and chamber finish and valve job
box stock 2925
Stinnett 850 carb
12.5 compression
268/272 108LCA roller
.665/.640 lift

flow without manifold/with

.200 130/130
.300 184/177
.400 233/221
.500 276/250
.600 299/267
.700 308/282
.800 312/288
.900 314/290

[Charvelrhoads]

Trans is not slipping, and has correct fill.
Fuel psi 7 lbs. WOT engine/fuel pump kill carb bowls are full
No collectors
13 lbs
It is leaf spring, unknown pinion angle

So basically "zoomie" style headers?[/quote]

Sorry, no collector extensions is what I meant. Regular 4 into 1 header

[RevTheory]

Sorry, no collector extensions is what I meant. Regular 4 into 1 header

That's something I'd surely address.

[Charvelrhoads]

As for is 600 reasonable it certainly is, port match intake/heads, clean up the runners and bottom line.... it needs to be properly tuned, either with a wideband or on the engine dyno.

Intake is an edelbrock super victor which is port matched as best as possible to heads, 1206 fel pro is the recommended gasket, but it is not an exact match to the heads.

Tuned jetting to best mph at track.
Tuned timing to best mph at track after getting jetting set.
Tuned shift points for best mph at track.

I don't have collector extensions on my headers, but will be putting some on. I've hear they're good for 10 to 15 hp.

This engine was freshened up this spring and some changes were made.
Original specs.

Brodix Track 1 heads, 2.055 in. 1.60 ex. unmeasured 67 cc chamber 221 cc intake runner. These heads exactly matched a 1206 felpro gasket.
Lunati solid roller @ .050, in. 260 ex. 272, lift in. .648, ex. .627 106 lsa, degreed @ 102
super victor intake port matched to heads. (new combo uses same part no. but brand new intake to port match to AFR heads.)
850 Holley DP carb.
4.10 rear gears. SLR-7.216
Everything else was unchanged, other than new rings, bearings, etc.
Car ran virtually the same numbers with this setup, wouldn't know anything was done to it.
Changed to 5.13 gears, SLR-9.02

Best pass with 4.10 gears.
60ft. 1.601
330ft 4.518
1/8 6.965
mph 100.81

Best pass with 5.13 gears.
60ft. 1.530
330ft 4.405
1/8 6.832
mph 101.22

I know there is a lot of loss with the complete setup and it all needs to be addressed eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that the engine is a dud, and I'd like to figure out why. Any other info you might need, just let me know. Thanks everyone.

[mag2555]

With your .675" lift which I am assuming is with out the lash factored in those track 1 heads flow some 276 cfm , if that's with the lash already backed out they flow 278 cfm according to what the Brodix catalog states.
That amount of cfm (276 ) is good for 567 hp.
Brodix next step up in heads the 1x with is meager 2 CC bigger port and a 2.10" valve will do 10 cfm more in air flow and do 596 hp.

570 hp is not far off and tuning for another 25 hp may not be impossible !

[F-BIRD'88]

did you ever run it 1/4 mile? if so what are the #'s?

if you are going to run fast 1/8th with a glide in this car you need a lot more gear.

just like a superstock car.

[Strange Magic]

but that doesn't change the fact that the engine is a dud,

What you put in, is what you get out. It is what it is.

Get the thing apart, get some pistons, rings and a vac pump on it. Looking for some magical concept to appear on the internet is useless. It's takes time, labor and money.