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How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

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How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby nitro2 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:27 pm

If you had access to a straight forward relatively inexpensive bolt on power product (and transferable), that had minimal effect on engine reliability in comparison to other methods, but cost money to run (but only when turned on) how much would you pay per run?

This is a bit of an open ended question and really doesn't apply to cars operating under strict rules, or serious drag classes, it applies more to open classes, street racers, street cars and even to those that like to go fast but don't know much about engines.

Lets say $500 to $1000 one time cost for the equipment (transferable).

HP examples:
300 HP modest streetcar becomes 500 to 600 HP
500 HP becomes 800 to 1000 HP

This would be done in an uncommon way whereby engine reliability at these big power levels would be much better than for other techniques and no other modifications to the engine would be needed.

The obvious comment to this will be yeah but are all the other driveline components up to the task, and in some cases yes some cases no, but that would be the end user's call. There are any number of reasons why this can be portayed as a bad idea, but lets ignore that for the moment, because that is not the question.

Its a sizable HP increase meaning a very sizable reduction in ETs and a very sizable increase in fun factor, tire smoke, etc.

So... would the fun factor be worth $50 a run, bearing in mind you only turn it on when you feel like it i.e. maybe only once a weekend. Conversely $50 to smoke all kinds of fast cars stop light to stop light or show off for friends without really having to have much automotive knowledge.

I should add the power increase could be adjusted downwards along with the cost per run if need be.

Think about how many $50 bills one would have to throw at a streetable 500 HP engine to change out all the parts to make it a "streetable" 800 to 1000 HP engine by conventional techniques :lol: and then do it all over again for the next engine and the next engine, as opposed to a one time transferable adjustable hardware investment.
Last edited by nitro2 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby Fordracer347 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:44 pm

I don't have any idea if this is all theoretical or if you have some sort of idea in mind. I will ass-u-me that this is a viable product idea you have. I would throw all engine/drivetrain reliability questions out the window for the moment and discuss the pricing structure and marketing plan first. The initial pricing sounds very appealing but I would think that the cost per use model would get very tiresome for most users. This seems like a nitrous idea but quite a bit more expensive per use.

Doubleing the output of a used engine of somewhat questionable health, you would be selling to the general public after all, seems like a recipie for disaster! Especially when you know that these people wouldn't necessarily be mechanically inclined. Small claims court and court of public opinion would have you tarred and feathered before the month was over. I'd say its time to park it until a better marketing model can be developed.

After thinking about this some more I feel like I need to add more. I really do appreciate where you are coming from and definitely see the value in it. Most that build a hot street car or a street/strip car rarely utilize the full power potential of the powerplant on a regular basis. It would be far more cost effective to do something like this(assuming this isn't theoretical). Its hard to sell though, since one full night at the track for a test & tune setup might cost you almost $1000!
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby nitro2 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:54 pm

Fordracer347 wrote:I don't have any idea if this is all theoretical or if you have some sort of idea in mind. I will ass-u-me that this is a viable product idea you have. I would throw all engine/drivetrain reliability questions out the window for the moment and discuss the pricing structure and marketing plan first. The initial pricing sounds very appealing but I would think that the cost per use model would get very tiresome for most users. This seems like a nitrous idea but quite a bit more expensive per use.

Doubleing the output of a used engine of somewhat questionable health, you would be selling to the general public after all, seems like a recipie for disaster! Especially when you know that these people wouldn't necessarily be mechanically inclined. Small claims court and court of public opinion would have you tarred and feathered before the month was over. I'd say its time to park it until a better marketing model can be developed.


It is an idea in mind, definitely not nitrous. A 500 HP nitrous shot on a 500 HP street engine, well that would be nothing resembling reliable. I'm not sure how much 10 seconds of a 500 HP nitrous shot would cost but it can't be much less and reliability would be completely out the window, so the total real cost on nitrous at a 500 HP shot would be far greater than $50 a run at those levels.

What I'm talking about, peak cylinder pressures wouldn't go up much so on low compression engines the peak pressures are still in the category of low to medium.

As to small claims court and so forth how is it that all the snake oil products seem to get by, or for that matter non-snake oil products from Klotz and others that advertise boosted power, and even sell hazardous products like propylene oxide ? Isn't that what disclaimers are for? Someone's figured out how to get around it and if its only the big guys that can do it, then may its the big guys that would have to sell it.
Last edited by nitro2 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby kirkwoodken » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:09 pm

Back around 1958-61, Chevy division was supposed to have offered for sale a type of compressed air "supercharger" using an air compressor mounted on the engine and an air tank mounted in the trunk. Since it was supposed to be a blow-through, it may have provided its own mixture compensation. It worked on the principle of blowing air through/past a venturi and drawing in more air from speed of the air discharge from the nozzle. Much like a lab vacuum pump driven from a water spigot. There may be more info on Google, but I haven't looked yet. Of course it will work, but just like nitrous: limited by the size of the tank. As long as the amount of air getting into the engine is greater than N/A, you would see an increase in power. Plus, this would have the added benefit of expanded cooler air being blown into the intake. Would also need a high flow regulator to maintain consistent mixture. A reed valve most likely couldn't hurt.

Chevy called it "Turbo" something, as I recall.

Something like this?
Last edited by kirkwoodken on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby nitro2 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:21 pm

Fordracer347 wrote:
After thinking about this some more I feel like I need to add more. I really do appreciate where you are coming from and definitely see the value in it. Most that build a hot street car or a street/strip car rarely utilize the full power potential of the powerplant on a regular basis. It would be far more cost effective to do something like this(assuming this isn't theoretical). Its hard to sell though, since one full night at the track for a test & tune setup might cost you almost $1000!


A couple things:

1) a 500 HP shot of nitrous must be what $30 for 10 seconds, and then there is the really good race fuel to go along with that, so not too far off the proposed $50, and the 500 HP nitrous shot is vastly harder on engine parts - remember we're not talking a 150 or 200 HP shot of nitrous but a 500 HP shot of nitrous, thats a big deal, it'd probably splat a street engine before the 1/8 on the first run. So the 500 HP shot nitrous is say $10k per run (i.e. $5k for the 1/8) :lol:

2) The product wouldn't be aimed at someone running it 20 times a night at a test and tune, it would be for occasional use, there is a world outside of bracket racing, but don't say that too loud :) .
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby ZEOHSIX » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:53 pm

In your world we shut down machine shops, open up salvage/towing services and seek out low mileage LS motors to add our 250HP shot of N2O. Not my cup of tea! I like the thought process and challenges of building normally aspirated motors that give a good service life. The magazines are full of articles on how to do it with junk yard parts, when some clown approaches me with the latest edition of Camaro Craft on how to build a 650HP 454 from a wrecking yard truck for $2400 I tell him to write the Tech Editor of that RAG! for the name of the machine shop they utilize. I have known a few magazine writers in my time and know for a fact few can really work their way around a welder or die grinder.... capable of bolting together free crap from manufacturers yes but, the ability to actually build something that will pass the test of time.....not many!
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby PackardV8 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:00 pm

kirkwoodken wrote:Back around 1958-61, Chevy division was supposed to have offered for sale a type of compressed air "supercharger" using an air compressor mounted on the engine and an air tank mounted in the trunk. Since it was supposed to be a blow-through, it may have provided its own mixture compensation. It worked on the principle of blowing air through/past a venturi and drawing in more air from speed of the air discharge from the nozzle. Much like a lab vacuum pump driven from a water spigot. There may be more info on Google, but I haven't looked yet. Of course it will work, but just like nitrous: limited by the size of the tank. As long as the amount of air getting into the engine is greater than N/A, you would see an increase in power. Plus, this would have the added benefit of expanded cooler air being blown into the intake. Would also need a high flow regulator to maintain consistent mixture. A reed valve most likely couldn't hurt.

Chevy called it "Turbo" something, as I recall. Something like this?


I was there in '58-61, reading all the car mags, haunting the Chevrolet dealerships and don't recall anything being offered for sale even close to what is described above.

It might have shown up in a Popular Mechanics following the article about a flying car coming on the market next year.
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby nitro2 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:35 pm

ZEOHSIX wrote:In your world we shut down machine shops, open up salvage/towing services and seek out low mileage LS motors to add our 250HP shot of N2O. Not my cup of tea! I like the thought process and challenges of building normally aspirated motors that give a good service life. The magazines are full of articles on how to do it with junk yard parts, when some clown approaches me with the latest edition of Camaro Craft on how to build a 650HP 454 from a wrecking yard truck for $2400 I tell him to write the Tech Editor of that RAG! for the name of the machine shop they utilize. I have known a few magazine writers in my time and know for a fact few can really work their way around a welder or die grinder.... capable of bolting together free crap from manufacturers yes but, the ability to actually build something that will pass the test of time.....not many!


My world is nothing like that which you are suggesting, not in any aspect.
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby Kevin Johnson » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:06 pm

Look up air amplifier; Coanda effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coand%C4%8 ... plications

kirkwoodken wrote:Back around 1958-61, Chevy division was supposed to have offered for sale a type of compressed air "supercharger" using an air compressor mounted on the engine and an air tank mounted in the trunk. Since it was supposed to be a blow-through, it may have provided its own mixture compensation. It worked on the principle of blowing air through/past a venturi and drawing in more air from speed of the air discharge from the nozzle. Much like a lab vacuum pump driven from a water spigot. There may be more info on Google, but I haven't looked yet. Of course it will work, but just like nitrous: limited by the size of the tank. As long as the amount of air getting into the engine is greater than N/A, you would see an increase in power. Plus, this would have the added benefit of expanded cooler air being blown into the intake. Would also need a high flow regulator to maintain consistent mixture. A reed valve most likely couldn't hurt.

Chevy called it "Turbo" something, as I recall.

Something like this?
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby Kevin Johnson » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:15 pm

JATO bottle. :lol:
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby 140Air » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:03 pm

kirkwoodken wrote:Back around 1958-61, Chevy division was supposed to have offered for sale a type of compressed air "supercharger" using an air compressor mounted on the engine and an air tank mounted in the trunk. Since it was supposed to be a blow-through, it may have provided its own mixture compensation. It worked on the principle of blowing air through/past a venturi and drawing in more air from speed of the air discharge from the nozzle. Much like a lab vacuum pump driven from a water spigot. There may be more info on Google, but I haven't looked yet. Of course it will work, but just like nitrous: limited by the size of the tank. As long as the amount of air getting into the engine is greater than N/A, you would see an increase in power. Plus, this would have the added benefit of expanded cooler air being blown into the intake. Would also need a high flow regulator to maintain consistent mixture. A reed valve most likely couldn't hurt.

Chevy called it "Turbo" something, as I recall.

Something like this?


Nevahhoiduvit.

But, Chevy did turbocharge the Corvair (engine in trunk) in 1962 at the same time Oldsmobile turbocharged the Cutlas. Both were draw through setups.
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby 140Air » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:14 pm

nitro2 wrote:If you had access to a straight forward relatively inexpensive bolt on power product (and transferable), that had minimal effect on engine reliability in comparison to other methods, but cost money to run (but only when turned on) how much would you pay per run?

This is a bit of an open ended question and really doesn't apply to cars operating under strict rules, or serious drag classes, it applies more to open classes, street racers, street cars and even to those that like to go fast but don't know much about engines.

Lets say $500 to $1000 one time cost for the equipment (transferable).

HP examples:
300 HP modest streetcar becomes 500 to 600 HP
500 HP becomes 800 to 1000 HP

This would be done in an uncommon way whereby engine reliability at these big power levels would be much better than for other techniques and no other modifications to the engine would be needed.

The obvious comment to this will be yeah but are all the other driveline components up to the task, and in some cases yes some cases no, but that would be the end user's call. There are any number of reasons why this can be portayed as a bad idea, but lets ignore that for the moment, because that is not the question.

Its a sizable HP increase meaning a very sizable reduction in ETs and a very sizable increase in fun factor, tire smoke, etc.

So... would the fun factor be worth $50 a run, bearing in mind you only turn it on when you feel like it i.e. maybe only once a weekend. Conversely $50 to smoke all kinds of fast cars stop light to stop light or show off for friends without really having to have much automotive knowledge.

I should add the power increase could be adjusted downwards along with the cost per run if need be.

Think about how many $50 bills one would have to throw at a streetable 500 HP engine to change out all the parts to make it a "streetable" 800 to 1000 HP engine by conventional techniques :lol: and then do it all over again for the next engine and the next engine, as opposed to a one time transferable adjustable hardware investment.


How about a 1,500 to 2,000 hp with 500 hp Nitrous shot drag car and engine. You will need the strong components. Destroke the engine and detune it to 300-400hp and keep the 500hp Nitrous. What kind of heads and cam are compatible with this scenario?
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby plovett » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:42 pm

I wouldn't pay anything without knowing what it is and how it works. Not trying to be funny, but a pie in the sky hypothetical question makes me want to put my wallet in my pocket and walk away.

JMO,

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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby adam728 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:23 pm

Paulie has a good point.

This forum likely isn't the consumer you are targeting. Guys here live to understand the internal combustion engine, and you won't see most even consider a product until understanding the science behind it.

I'm paraphrasing a colleague, but "In God we trust. All you other fuckers bring data and a damn good explanation."
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Re: How Much Would You Pay To Go A Lot Faster - Reliably

Postby nitro2 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:55 pm

140Air wrote:
How about a 1,500 to 2,000 hp with 500 hp Nitrous shot drag car and engine. You will need the strong components. Destroke the engine and detune it to 300-400hp and keep the 500hp Nitrous. What kind of heads and cam are compatible with this scenario?


Wouldn't be using nitrous at all, nor a detuned super engine..
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