SpeedTalk Store - Opinion Columns

merge collectors

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

merge collectors

Postby bigjoe1 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:56 pm

Has anyone ever seen a real gain in drag strip performance from just adding merge collectors to an existing header setup ? I have been dyno testing for 50 years or so, and I have only seen a few times where they made more torque over a conventional collector. Some people say they can make your car accelerate faster going down the track but not show up on the dyno.. I am not sure I buy into that


JOE SHERMAN RACING
bigjoe1
Show Guest
Show Guest
 
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Location: santa ana calif-92703

Re: merge collectors

Postby Strange Magic » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:24 pm

I will catch a lot of heat for this, but here it is:

Losses down the track and I truely believe they are a band aid to improper engineering of a well built engine that has the ability to scavange by it's self properly. I am a big believer in a scavange and not a merge.

If the primarys are too short, you can band aid the header with a merge.
strangemagicperformance.com
Strange Magic Camshaft Technologies
Decisions on parts and advise should not be based on how much money a company can pour into marketing. This is a common mis-conception in the industry.
Strange Magic
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:14 am
Location: New York

Re: merge collectors

Postby 63qcar » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:28 pm

Joe , not first hand experience , but I was talking to Robert Pond last year after I put merged collectors on my Cobra replica with one of his 482`s in it . He mentioned that he had tried them on his `66 or 67 Fairlane and was pleasantly surprised as it reduced his ET slightly . Unfortunately , I can`t remember by how much .
I know on mine ( seat of the pants , no dyno ) , I could feel the difference throughout the rpm range ..... 2400 to 6000 rpm . I did have to rejet when I made the change .

Bob
63qcar
New Member
New Member
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: merge collectors

Postby bigjoe1 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:44 pm

All of my experience has been bad. On several occasions a jet boat racer has come to test headers on my dyno . He always brings several sets of Burns headers/collectors. They never show any gains- this is the same Burns guy who sells these very high dollar merge collectors. So far, no good. I still get emails and phone calls about them though


JOE SHERMAN RACING
bigjoe1
Show Guest
Show Guest
 
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Location: santa ana calif-92703

Re: merge collectors

Postby bigjoe1 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:46 pm

Seat of the pants does not count.. Whenever you pay big money for anything, it always seem to run better


JOE SHERMAN RACING
bigjoe1
Show Guest
Show Guest
 
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Location: santa ana calif-92703

Re: merge collectors

Postby Belgian1979 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:37 am

bigjoe1 wrote:Seat of the pants does not count.. Whenever you pay big money for anything, it always seem to run better


JOE SHERMAN RACING


:lol:
Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 3180
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: merge collectors

Postby Abbottracingheads » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:32 am

I have had it both ways. Some helped on the track and some hurt. The ones I have gotten from Mark Lelchook at Performance Welding have helped.
Abbott Racing Heads and Engines
Abbottracingheads
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 738
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 5:46 pm
Location: Crane, Texas

Re: merge collectors

Postby hoffman900 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:14 am

bigjoe1 wrote:All of my experience has been bad. On several occasions a jet boat racer has come to test headers on my dyno . He always brings several sets of Burns headers/collectors. They never show any gains- this is the same Burns guy who sells these very high dollar merge collectors. So far, no good. I still get emails and phone calls about them though


JOE SHERMAN RACING


Joe,

Calvin Elston told you a couple years ago that the merge collectors allow you to run shorter primaries, while still protecting the bottom end some, thus allowing you to make more power. He said in the same post adding them to an existing header and doing nothing else will probably hurt the top end.

When I get a moment, I'll dig up the thread and post.
-Bob
hoffman900
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: merge collectors

Postby hoffman900 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:21 am

Here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35804&p=434321#p434321

exhausted wrote:
bigjoe1 wrote:I have had lots of guys come to test headers on the dyno, and some want to try the merge collectors. I never seen anything even cose to what they cost as a result. Usually they are a little better way down in the RPM range, never at high RPM though. A few HP for sat 400 dollars is not a good deal. Pretty much a waste of time and money.



JOE SHERMAN RACING


The principle that is at work in a merged collector is this. The smaller the choke the longer it takes for atmospheric pressure to equalize into the back door of a given engine. It protects your power curve the same way as shorter cam timing and longer primary tubes. Just slipping a collector on with a smaller choke will usually show more power at the bottom of the curve. (which Joe points out)..
The secret is that you can now shorten your header which is how you can make more power upstairs.

Header length is always relative to rpm band but also the size of the choke. Most headers have to be long because the collectors are so large. The longer tubes keep the reflected wave "back" at the lowest point on the power band that the engine has to pull from. Change the collector choke and shorten the tubes and you will see the power. If you can't shorten the tubes, do not blame the collector, and if you need shorter headers, call me... :)

I am using Joe Sherman's example as what will happen just installing on a existing header. If you can not shorten your header or get one shorter for your application, Joe is absolutely correct, they are expensive and are not a solution in themselves. :)
-Bob
hoffman900
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: merge collectors

Postby Strange Magic » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:37 am

If you take two identical engines and where only allowed to work with 2 changes (intake manifold, camshaft) over a long period of time, but one of the engines must have a merge and the other a scavange. I truely believe that the scavange engine would dominate after all testing was done over a long period of time.

I really believe that a merge is just a band aid for incorrect manifold and camshaft events, and there is so much wrong out there that it's no reason why the merge has become a hit. You will not find a merge on anything I build.

P.S. I am a big believer in primary length and 95 percent of the applications out there do not have enough primary, and that will cause signal loss in the intake and poor exhaust speed with a weak ability to scavange.
Last edited by Strange Magic on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
strangemagicperformance.com
Strange Magic Camshaft Technologies
Decisions on parts and advise should not be based on how much money a company can pour into marketing. This is a common mis-conception in the industry.
Strange Magic
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:14 am
Location: New York

Re: merge collectors

Postby BOOT » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:38 am

Awhile back I wondered why an engine that never saw low rpm with todays high stalls would run longtubes vs shorties or midlength headers, sounds like merge collectors is the best of both worlds.
I know as much as I can learn and try to keep an open mind to anything!

If I didn't overthink stuff I wouldn't be on speedtalk!
User avatar
BOOT
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: merge collectors

Postby hoffman900 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:41 am

Strange Magic wrote:If you take two identical engines and where only allowed to work with 2 changes (intake manifold, camshaft) over a long period of time, but one of the engines must have a merge and the other a scavange. I truely believe that the scavange engine would dominate after all testing was done over a long period of time.

I really believe that a merge is just a band aid for incorrect manifold and camshaft events, and there is so much wrong out there that it's no reason why the merge has become a hit. You will not find a merge on anything I build.

P.S. I am a big believer in primary length and 95 percent of the applications out there do not have enough primary, and that will cause signal loss in the intake and poor exhaust speed with a weak ability to scavange.


IMO, I look to see what is being done by top class racers, and it's obvious where things are going. It probably doesn't matter much as most 'race engine' builders are building bracket engines or hot street motors and as long as its consistent, who cares....
-Bob
hoffman900
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: merge collectors

Postby 77cruiser » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:59 am

Would the PS guys use em if they did nothing, or the cup guys?
Jim
77cruiser
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:32 pm
Location: I Falls MN

Re: merge collectors

Postby hoffman900 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:05 am

77cruiser wrote:Would the PS guys use em if they did nothing, or the cup guys?


Most serious circuit racers (road race and oval track) use them. I've seen top Super Stock, Comp Eliminator, and Stock Eliminator engines with them. It's part of the entire package and if you talk to people who have done the work, they don't make horsepower by themselves, but allow you to change other things which is where you see the benefit. There are many guys who build good, strong 'bracket' engines, but I don't think there are very many serious top level circuit or heads up builders posting and sharing information here. Those who do or are involved with those who do, you listen to them very closely and while sometimes vague, you can read between the lines and get what they're saying. Ymmv and all of that..

Looking at something like EMC, I think you're going to see more and more effort being put into the exhaust side as the competition matures and becomes 'stouter'.
-Bob
hoffman900
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: merge collectors

Postby nhrastocker » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:19 am

hoffman900 wrote:
77cruiser wrote:Would the PS guys use em if they did nothing, or the cup guys?


Most serious circuit racers (road race and oval track) use them. I've seen top Super Stock, Comp Eliminator, and Stock Eliminator engines with them. It's part of the entire package and if you talk to people who have done the work, they don't make horsepower by themselves, but allow you to change other things which is where you see the benefit. There are many guys who build good, strong 'bracket' engines, but I don't think there are very many serious top level circuit or heads up builders posting and sharing information here. Those who do or are involved with those who do, you listen to them very closely and while sometimes vague, you can read between the lines and get what they're saying. Ymmv and all of that..

Looking at something like EMC, I think you're going to see more and more effort being put into the exhaust side as the competition matures and becomes 'stouter'.


X10! You will see gains as long as you optimize other components accordingly.
User avatar
nhrastocker
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: Arizona

Next

Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 396monteSS, c151, Daniel Jones, fastblackracing, Google [Bot], harold, MSNbot Media, redgoldstein, Rokker, S10LS2, tractorman, wyrmrider and 46 guests