Oil Pan, Windage Tray dilemma

[DCarr511]

I have run into a dilemma here, ... Full Story ... About 6 yrs ago I bought a new Moroso Oil Pan for a SBC ( # 21804 ) and Pick up ( # 24205 ) I finally have a use for it and went to fit it on my " Set Up ". The reason I say Fit it to my Set Up is because I am building a SBC 383 that will be a cross between Street & Hiway Cruiser and Standing Mile Competition at Wilmington Ohio. Not thinking about the Oil Pan I already had and the fact that I like the screen type widage trays, I had purchased Canton's version of Milodons " Diamond Stripper " Windage Tray ( # 20-911 ). And of course it doesnt exactly fit with that pan.

Now the 2 parts that cause the real problems are the removable rear shelf and the piece welded to the Pass. side wall of the pan to keep Oil from being slung up the Pass side wall. I was thinking of cutting that side wall piece out and leaving out the removable shelf at the rear of the pan and keeping the Dual Trap Door set up ( which is the biggest reason to use this pan. Or .. using a stock pan and the screen type windage tray w/o the Trap Doors ( which I also really like ). Maybe it would be easier to write out an itemized list of posibility's.

A - Use the Screen Type Windage Tray ( STWT ) w/ a different or stock type pan.

B - Use the STWT and a Stock type Pan and adding trap doors to it.

C - Replace the Long Main Studs w/ Short ones and use the Moroso Pan w/o the Windage Tray

D - Modify the 21804 Moroso Pan to fit as needed to use it and the STWT.

It would be very easy to remove the Lip on the passenger side wall of the Moroso Pan and after that I am real certain that all will fit well. I have sprayed Dychem on the Windage Tray and found all the problem areas. And have taken care of all of the ones involving the Rods hitting the Screen. BTW all of the clearencing issues involving the Moroso pan have occured w/o the use of a Pan Gasket or Timing Chain cover in place. I am using Felpro's 1 pc. Oil Pan gasket. So that will give me a little bit more clearence. I'm headed down to the shop in a few minutes here to install the T/C Cover & Gasket to see how much that helps me out.

If I decide to modify the Moroso pan, I have a couple of bare blocks that I could set up so I could look through the Cylinder Bores to see whats going on. And I could position the STWT up high enough to where the Moroso pan clears everything and i will have an excellent view which will be able to give me a better idea on which way to. I have some concerns over the 2 styles conflicting and having a negative affect on one another. Maybe I'm making all of this more complicated than it really needs to be. But then again .... thats how some advancements were found and then marketed.

If you have any info or comments to share you can also PM me here or email me at DCarr511 at mn dot com.

Any and all opinions with explanations will be greatly appreciated. TIA !!!

Here are pictures of the pieces being used. I will include a better shot of the oil pan later.

Oil Pan Side Rail


Oil Pan Rear Shelf


Windage Tray

[rally]

What Car is this oil pan for? If its a Camaro, or Nova, i would use the factory 302 Z-28 oil pan and windage tray. Very good package.

[Walter R. Malik]

IF you wish to use that screen type windage tray then use a stock OEM pan or exact replacement.

[DCarr511]

What Car is this oil pan for? If its a Camaro, or Nova, i would use the factory 302 Z-28 oil pan and windage tray. Very good package.

1986 Corvette

With this Chassis a deep pan and a Dry Sump isnt out of the question. I have a few of the parts needed for that ... but I think that would be for the next Engine which will be an LS2 I have setting in the corner. I had gathered most of the parts for this ( 383 ) engine over the last 6-7 yrs. Intent was to put it into my immaculate '86 Monte Carlo SS. Then I just couldnt wrench on the car to the extent needed so I just put everything in boxes and put them away. Then I aquired this car, got the parts out, dusted them off, took an inventory and best I Can figure out all I need is Push Rods. So I'm slowly working my way up to the point that I can measure for them.

IF you wish to use that screen type windage tray then use a stock OEM pan or exact replacement.

I appreciate your response and am curious why you suggest that pan ? I have a stock one all cleaned up and ready to go sitting here. It does have a shelf in it, so that would need to be removed but thats not an issue at all.

After I posted this I went into the shop ( my Fort ) and I mocked everything up with the Moroso Pan and the STWT ( before I read any of this ). Just because I have the time, ability & resources I am going to mock it up in a bare block so I can get a much bette view and some better pictures and most importantly ... the desire to do it.

Thanks again !

[Kevin Johnson]

Best to mock it up.

20-911 - SBC AFTERMARKET PAN SCREEN WINDAGE TRAY LH DIPSTICK (20-911)

This SBC full length Screen Windage tray is for left side dipsticks. The full length trays only fit into aftermarket oil pans that are deeper in the front.

The strip along the side of the Moroso pan is a crank scraper. You can remove it if needed and purchase one of their scrapers that go along the pan rail. This removes it from path-of-insertion and interference issues. If you use the Moroso pan, I would also try to use the OEM tray that attaches to the special bolts with studs off the caps. You will need to mock it up.

The OEM pan/set-up has two windage trays. The one that is welded in and also serves as a surge baffle and the one that bolts onto the studs (above) around the pump. Both are important -- you can believe that GM would not using all those extra parts on passenger car engines without a good reason. The piston movement will inject pulses or slugs of air into the sump well area that will push the oil up the wall.

[BOOT]

I like this pan for the C4 http://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp50ltr/ but if your using the main tray I'd try this version and just remove or bend the scraper http://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp50/ I like those pans because they have a longer sump and since you can't go deep on a C4 at least you can go forward since the engine sits farther back than other cars.

[pamotorman]

I would use the combo together tray and pan the company sells as I would guess they have dyno tested their setup together and they know it works.

[DCarr511]

wrote:
IF you wish to use that screen type windage tray then use a stock OEM pan or exact replacement.

I appreciate your response and am curious why you suggest that pan ?

The reason I asked this wasnt to question you about your suggestion but to try and learn why you feel thats the better choice of the ones I brought up.

Best to mock it up.

20-911 - SBC AFTERMARKET PAN SCREEN WINDAGE TRAY LH DIPSTICK (20-911)

This SBC full length Screen Windage tray is for left side dipsticks. The full length trays only fit into aftermarket oil pans that are deeper in the front.

The strip along the side of the Moroso pan is a crank scraper. You can remove it if needed and purchase one of their scrapers that go along the pan rail. This removes it from path-of-insertion and interference issues. If you use the Moroso pan, I would also try to use the OEM tray that attaches to the special bolts with studs off the caps. You will need to mock it up.

The OEM pan/set-up has two windage trays. The one that is welded in and also serves as a surge baffle and the one that bolts onto the studs (above) around the pump. Both are important -- you can believe that GM would not using all those extra parts on passenger car engines without a good reason. The piston movement will inject pulses or slugs of air into the sump well area that will push the oil up the wall.

I agree 100% on GM using them for a reason. I know my '96 5.7 Siverado has one. I will have to test fit the stock pan I have to see how it fits.

Other than the Canton Tray is either right against the pan in the front area for a short length, there are no other problems with it by itself. Mocking it up in a bare block will let me know exactly how much of it is touching.
I'm not saying this was the corrct thing to do, When Milodon 1st came out with their Diamond Stripper tray, I ran a full length ( only style available I believe ) in a Milodon Pan that fit a stock '64 Chevelle Chassis. This was back in 1988 - 90. It didnt cause any oiling problems that I " Knew of ".

The " Crank Scraper " sits higher up in the pan than the outer edge of the Windage Tray. Right now the only issues the I am having with it is that the Scraper pushing the Tray back into the path of some of the rods. I can notch the scraper and then bend the Tray into those notches to get clearence. Or remove the scraper.

The only thing with using the Factory Windage Tray is I already had the block Align Honed with these ARP studs. I have a set of the stock Windage Tray Bolts, but no windage tray. I'm certain 1 could easily be aquired.

I like this pan for the C4 http://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp50ltr/ but if your using the main tray I'd try this version and just remove or bend the scraper http://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp50/ I like those pans because they have a longer sump and since you can't go deep on a C4 at least you can go forward since the engine sits farther back than other cars.

That is a nice looking Oil and is better shaped than the one I am using, not expensive by any means either. I guess my real question on using it or not is to decide how long I'll have this engine in the car, And what I'm going to do with it when the LS is done and ready to go in.

[DCarr511]

Today I set up both the stock Oil Pan and the Moroso ... which incidently are identically shaped pans. The Moroso has the removable shelf, the " scraper ( which .. is that really a scraper in the same sense as one that is normally trimmed to fit the rotating assembly is a scraper ... or is used more so to help prevent Oil from climbing the RT. side wall ( thats always been my understanding ) ? Anyways. I was able to mount them one at a time on a bare block with only 3 mains ( # 3 & and the rear ) and the windage tray at the exact same height ( I set the top nut at .400" from the end of the stud on my 383 ) and took a complete set of pictures with both pans. If anyone is interested in seeing any of the pics, PM or email me.

I've always been impressed by looking at things installed in a bare block as you get a completely different view and in many cases a new understanding of whats going on and changes that should be made or at least looked into and discussed with someone who knows. I'm addressing this info to the guys that will read this thread that are on par with my amount of or lack of knowledge to get them to try it out. They guys that I hope to hear from have been doing this for many years and in some cases have written books.

I am going to use the Moroso Pan, remove the shelf and bend in the scraper in enough to where it doesnt push the Windage Tray in at all. This way I still have the full length Windage Tray and the use of the Trap Doors to help with Oil control. Until the engine is installed ... nothing is 100% certain. The Champ Pans are really a nice looking piece especially for the price. If I purchase another pan it thats what it will be. Plan for now is to save the Dry Sump stuff for the LS2 engine. As that one will be a bit nore serious.

[Walter R. Malik]

IF you wish to use that screen type windage tray then use a stock OEM pan or exact replacement.

I appreciate your response and am curious why you suggest that pan ? I have a stock one all cleaned up and ready to go sitting here. It does have a shelf in it, so that would need to be removed but thats not an issue at all.


Thanks again !

The high performance Corvette pans have no clearance for a crossover exhaust pipe, (I don't know the years but, there were three for a small block). They either have a longer sump in the rear or a two level sump starting rearward from #4 cylinder or a pan with no horizontal shelf, (but a small rearward angled baffle at the front of the sump), meant for use with a factory windage tray

The horizontal shelf does NOT need to be removed but, simply dimpled or holed to clear the tips of the longer studs. The front of some pans will need some dimpling on the bottom, also for clearance to those studs on the #2 cap and the very front part of that screen removed in front of that #2 main cap.

The regular performance engines in a Corvette don't have any of this and are just like any other passenger car pan of that year.

[DCarr511]

IF you wish to use that screen type windage tray then use a stock OEM pan or exact replacement.

I appreciate your response and am curious why you suggest that pan ? I have a stock one all cleaned up and ready to go sitting here. It does have a shelf in it, so that would need to be removed but thats not an issue at all.


Thanks again !

The high performance Corvette pans have no clearance for a crossover exhaust pipe, (I don't know the years but, there were three for a small block). They either have a longer sump in the rear or a two level sump starting rearward from #4 cylinder or a pan with no horizontal shelf, (but a small rearward angled baffle at the front of the sump), meant for use with a factory windage tray

The horizontal shelf does NOT need to be removed but, simply dimpled or holed to clear the tips of the longer studs. The front of some pans will need some dimpling on the bottom, also for clearance to those studs on the #2 cap and the very front part of that screen removed in front of that #2 main cap.

The regular performance engines in a Corvette don't have any of this and are just like any other passenger car pan of that year.

[Kevin Johnson]

... the " scraper ( which .. is that really a scraper in the same sense as one that is normally trimmed to fit the rotating assembly is a scraper ... or is used more so to help prevent Oil from climbing the RT. side wall ( thats always been my understanding ) ?

By the time the oil has climbed high enough out of the sump well to reach the "scraper" the surface of the oil in the sump will already be closer to the pickup with the increased possibility of vortex formation. This is why the secondary tray around the pump area is used to protect the sump oil from buffeting. I do not know if ARP offers specialty studs for the SBC with smaller protruding studs. Some of my customers -- with other engines -- have used longer than necessary ARP studs to capture and suspend components. It requires additional nuts and perhaps washers depending on the exact situation.

[DCarr511]

... the " scraper ( which .. is that really a scraper in the same sense as one that is normally trimmed to fit the rotating assembly is a scraper ... or is used more so to help prevent Oil from climbing the RT. side wall ( thats always been my understanding ) ?

By the time the oil has climbed high enough out of the sump well to reach the "scraper" the surface of the oil in the sump will already be closer to the pickup with the increased possibility of vortex formation. This is why the secondary tray around the pump area is used to protect the sump oil from buffeting. I do not know if ARP offers specialty studs for the SBC with smaller protruding studs. Some of my customers -- with other engines -- have used longer than necessary ARP studs to capture and suspend components. It requires additional nuts and perhaps washers depending on the exact situation.

Probably because I am using a 3.75" crank the ARP studs I am using are just barely long enough .... some might say the perfect length. I had to set the tray height according to where I was able to get the capture nut all the way on a stud with nothing sticking thrrough it. Doing this required me to " shape " the tray in the path of the Rods a bit deeper. I had thought of drilling and tapping the nuts for set screws to lock them in place.

[Kevin Johnson]

Probably because I am using a 3.75" crank the ARP studs I am using are just barely long enough .... some might say the perfect length. I had to set the tray height according to where I was able to get the capture nut all the way on a stud with nothing sticking thrrough it. Doing this required me to " shape " the tray in the path of the Rods a bit deeper. I had thought of drilling and tapping the nuts for set screws to lock them in place.

I would use a touch of locktite.

I was very impressed with the length of the ARP stud set for the BBM. Exact.