Cylinder Sealing issue

[DCarr511]

I think we have reached a consensus - the engine needs O-rings on copper head gasket.

Note: has the builder tried MLS head gasket?? Probably will work better than the copper unit.

From the searching he has done, he has not been able to find MLS gaskets for this application.

He has the new SCE gaskets ordered.

I've been busy with some other projects, I will at least get the head gasket measured tomorrow and will look at the head. I do not have the block, it is still in the car ... which is across the street from me so I might get a chance to look at it.

[ijames]

Dan, thanks for the link to the Lamons catalog - very useful and interesting.

[DCarr511]

Took a few measurements today and the average thickness surround the Fastener hole was .0687", going to the closet spot next to the cylinder Bore avg. .0693 " so just over a 1/2 thou. thicker.

I'm wondering if the Deck Surface surrounding the Intake Valves is the weakest area of the head and is possibly deforming under boost ? Opinions ?

[allencr267]

I'm surprised that any copper HG has ever sealed a head & block if it doesn't have some sort of a bead or O-ring to compress or some super copper-kote stuff to glue it together. The wide spacing between the fasteners, the head & deck voids and the irregular heat make for something that only high pressure on a small surface area that can cope with movement can seal.

[vwchuck]

Throw that copper in the recycle bin you might get a dollar for it. That copper head gasket isn't worth the headache you get making it work.
Run a multilayer metal head gasket like cometic makes. They will handle way more than 22 or 30 psi boost.

[DCarr511]

I'm surprised that any copper HG has ever sealed a head & block if it doesn't have some sort of a bead or O-ring to compress or some super copper-kote stuff to glue it together. The wide spacing between the fasteners, the head & deck voids and the irregular heat make for something that only high pressure on a small surface area that can cope with movement can seal.

When new it had a sealing bead around the cylinders and water jackets.

Throw that copper in the recycle bin you might get a dollar for it. That copper head gasket isn't worth the headache you get making it work.
Run a multilayer metal head gasket like cometic makes. They will handle way more than 22 or 30 psi boost.

Know of someone who makes them for a Saturn 1.9 L ?

[Kevin Johnson]

I'm surprised that any copper HG has ever sealed a head & block if it doesn't have some sort of a bead or O-ring to compress or some super copper-kote stuff to glue it together. The wide spacing between the fasteners, the head & deck voids and the irregular heat make for something that only high pressure on a small surface area that can cope with movement can seal.

When new it had a sealing bead around the cylinders and water jackets.

Yes, you can see the witness marks from them as well as the SCE part number in your excellent pictures.

[wyrmrider]

I was real serious about using Bellevue washer
you machine a receiver groove and put in the washer
when you tighten the head you compress the bellevue spring
head can dance around quite a bit without loosing seal
we used on 3.760 bore motor with 4 bolts / cyl @ 50 (+ lbs boost
also SBC and bbc bore sizes
SBC was turbo
bbc was blown gas truck block/ marine

[Pippard1]

Cometic will make multi layer steel gaskets for about anything if you ask.

[cjperformance]

Deck the block, o'ring the head, thin squirt of copper spray, retorque after first heat up, copper gasket will live fine.

[booger1]

Deck and o-ring block.Block is much more stable than the head.

If using copper,deck and head should be MLS smooth....they're hard enough to seal on 7:1 flathead motors without o-rings let alone boosted stuff.MUST retorque with copper,maybe a couple times until it holds torque.

Either copper and o-rings....a captured wire head gasket,both with studs.....or MLS......MLS is the weakest of the bunch because of the TTY head bolts.Like trying to hold the head down with springs.... MLS with studs not a good idea in my book,people do it but......they don't really play well together.

[4sfed]

The head is deforming under boost. A rigid gasket will never work . . . you need something that will move when the material under the port moves due to combustion pressure. I've used the gas-filled metallic o-rings in a wet sleeve engine for the last 7 years in a boosted wet-sleeve engine. My problem is the material below my exhaust port is flexing due to cylinder pressure and reducing the compression on the gasket. The o-rings allow the head to move without losing the seal.

The o-rings I use are inconel and the groove is exposed to the combustion chamber . . . available sizes did not allow a complete groove. I'm using a 1/16 section o-ring, crushed to 0.050. To create my groove, I made a 0.050 thick aluminum head gasket (7075 T6) with the bore equal to the O.D. of the o-ring. No modifications were made to the head or liners. Water and oil passages are sealed with a bead of silicone on both sides of the "gasket".

You could cut the groove in the sleeve and use silicone to seal the head directly to the block, or make a "gasket" like I did. I would suggest using the 1/16 section rings. You should also specify silver plating . . . the softer surface will flow to seal the imperfections in the machined surfaces.

[lowriderglen]

I have the same head gasket problem with a 14.7 cr 1.9 Saturn circle track motor. I have tried the SCE gasket without any luck. Any solution to this problem??

[peejay]

I'm surprised that the head gasket is the ONLY thing failing on this at 22psi!

Interesting that GM made mroe or less two different versions of the Ecotec head. Non forced induction models had the same lost-foam casting process as Saturn used. The turbo high output engines used normal castings (SAAB sourced?). I wonder if the head isn't just simply too flexible to work under these pressures.

[user-23911]

Headgaskets always leak after detonation.

So, the first suspect is always a bad tune.

How much HP was it making?