Dumb history question for the carb guys

[peejay]

They ran that basic 4180 design on 351HO and also 460's during the 80's also, bronco, truck, van.

They went to the thermoquad here in OZ in 1977 to meet emissions on Ford V8's

Hysteric

I forgot what they used here around that time, but I think everything in cars was a two-barrel anyway. Maybe they were still using the Autolite 4300 (decent unit if you didn't screw around with it) on the last of the 460s.

The 4180 (kind of a goofy carb, not really a 4150/4160) was only on high performance models, and only for a short time because Ford wanted to build their own EFI in-house instead of just licensing from Bosch like everyone else in the world (except GM or Chrysler) at the time.

[novadude]

One of the reasons I think the basic Holley is somewhat primitive is that the basic, common out-of-the-box Holley has fixed power valve restrictions, and the power valve operates in an "on/off" manner. The only "tuning" you can do is to change the "cut in" point of the power system by changing power valves (unless you want to plug / drill holes. Seems to me that the Rochester and Carter designs are a much better set-up for a street car that sees a lot of part throttle operation. Much more adjustability with tapered metering rods of varying sizes, and an assortment of springs. I realize that higher end holley-style carbs have screw-in PV restrictions, but 90% of the Holleys that guys are using don't have this feature. I feel you can fine tune the fuel curve much easier with the other carb styles.

I will admit that I've only ever owned one Holley, and it was a junk 1850 model. Never could get it to run as well (power and mpg) as a q-jet.

[levisnteeshirt]

A holley can be tailored to the engine, the carb can only be asked to do what the engine wants, and respond accordingly. If mpg is what your after, they do make a dual stage holley power valve, but you cant just cut the fuel away, that will cause lean conditions, low power when needed ,poor combustion , and higher fuel consumption,,, throttle response is huge with fuel injection, but also mpg, ,,

[stealth]

Dual needle & seats…

Could finally feed all the fuel you wanted without needing more than one carb….

[Bob Hollinshead]

They ran that basic 4180 design on 351HO and also 460's during the 80's also, bronco, truck, van.

They went to the thermoquad here in OZ in 1977 to meet emissions on Ford V8's

Hysteric

I forgot what they used here around that time, but I think everything in cars was a two-barrel anyway. Maybe they were still using the Autolite 4300 (decent unit if you didn't screw around with it) on the last of the 460s.

The 4180 (kind of a goofy carb, not really a 4150/4160) was only on high performance models, and only for a short time because Ford wanted to build their own EFI in-house instead of just licensing from Bosch like everyone else in the world (except GM or Chrysler) at the time.

They did use the 4180 on bronco's and trucks also, 351 and 460

[levisnteeshirt]

I've been thinking of a way to make the IFR's externally adjustable, i believe this will help to tame the idle down even more

[Barry_R]

The 4150/4160 was released around 1957. It was a good performance part even back then - seeing considerable use within 5 years. Ford ran a pair of them in 1963 on 427s, Chrysler used them on their race Hemi applications, and GM used them on their performance applications. All three companies had their own dedicated suppliers - the decision to use the Holley product was obviously based on performance and performance potential, not on cost or other factors.

Johnson was definitely involved in the big carb era - and was doubtless noteworthy for development on the dual accelerator pump "double pumpers". A few models still used the fairly complex "Johnson rod" secondary actuating linkage - a term still used by Holley engineering - when I worked with the company. Honestly not sure of the full extent and relationships involved back in the proverbial day - but given the scale of OE performance usage he definitely was not acting alone in the development. The two most popular list numbers of the era were the 600 cfm 1850, which was essentially derived from a Ford OE piece, and the 750 cfm 3310, which was similarly adapted from an OE GM item. Randy Malik may have some better input on the history since his tenure at Holley predated mine by several years.

When you try to figure out why the Holley ended up dominant there are plenty of factors to consider. Recognition of a potential market and the pursuit of same were certainly a factor. Up until the 90s, Holley was the only one that had a true aftermarket performance program - with a wide range of carbs in various sizes, bowl styles and secondary configurations for each application. Carter tried a little but never really got it together - with a few universal offerings that were offshoots of production parts. Rochester had zero interest in the performance aftermarket, and any Q-Jet development has always been left in the hands of enthusiasts driven by rules mandates or by personal desire.

Simplicity is sometimes used in a near insulting manner, when the proper description might be simple elegance in design - accomplishing the task with the minimum necessary parts, no unnecessary complexity, and the cleanest execution. Take a Holley (empty of fuel please) and hold it up to the light with the throttles wide open. You will see four concentric circles with a minimum of obstructions. Do the same thing with a Q-Jet or an AFB (or AFB derivitive) and you'll see odd shapes and stuff hanging in the breeze that dose not allow for a smooth airflow path. Consider how hard you work on developing a smooth and functional airflow path in the heads and intake - why would you top it with bent sheet metal and oblong castings that were dictated by ease of castings and cost reduction? The fuel handing aspects of multiple inlets, large bowl capacity and floats have already been discussed. The metering rod flexibility is oft touted as superior - and the potential is there, but the vast majority of metering rod carbs use stepped rods instead of tapered ones - reducing the potential of that advantage considerably. And we all know that metering rods and pistons never hang up, drag, or abrade the jets. I do wish that Holleys all had adjustable PCVRs...

[Barry_R]

As for the emissions commentary...
Holley had to meet the exact same pollution and mileage standards as did any other OEM carburetor application in a given year. The EPA and CAFE did not care who supplied the parts - the rules were the rules and all manufacturers had to meet them. The drivability aspects are in the eyes (or behind) of the vehicle manufacturer and/or owner, but I can scarcely imagine Ford being all that much less demanding than GM.

I was always kinda surprised that they assigned a complete new series to the 4180 since it is very much a refinement of the traditional 4160 carbs. It has annular booster on the primary side, some interesting metering refinements, and some emissions driven details. But Holley had made many larger scale changes to carbs in the past and just assigned new list numbers (look at a governed 4150G versus a 4776 double pumper...). Must have been desired by a marketing or sales decision at the OEM level.

[Walter R. Malik]

As for the emissions commentary...
Holley had to meet the exact same pollution and mileage standards as did any other OEM carburetor application in a given year. The EPA and CAFE did not care who supplied the parts - the rules were the rules and all manufacturers had to meet them. The drivability aspects are in the eyes (or behind) of the vehicle manufacturer and/or owner, but I can scarcely imagine Ford being all that much less demanding than GM.

I was always kinda surprised that they assigned a complete new series to the 4180 since it is very much a refinement of the traditional 4160 carbs. It has annular booster on the primary side, some interesting metering refinements, and some emissions driven details. But Holley had made many larger scale changes to carbs in the past and just assigned new list numbers (look at a governed 4150G versus a 4776 double pumper...). Must have been desired by a marketing or sales decision at the OEM level.

Barry ... maybe I can show some light about that 4180; I was part of that project for OEM intent, (not any aftermarket production).
The 4360 carb was supposed to also be for an OEM on a V6 but, it got shelved and the aftermarket brought it to the marketplace. A GREAT metering carburetor of spread bore design however, a bit small in CFM, (I believe 460 CFM), to really catch-on in that venue, (with small secondaries similar to the primary side). Mechanical secondary operation but, it NEVER "bogged" so, it only needed one long duration piston type accelerator pump.

Back to the 4180. It had completely different primary circuits, (not simply a change or refinement of anything previous), which designated a model number change though they shared many other design features with the 4150/4160 models; (kinda similar to the 3160 3 barrel carbs change in model number because of a completely different secondary metering design).
What most people could see was that the idle mixture adjustments were now in the throttle body instead of the metering block and the main circuit had a totally brass main well insert with differing emulsion holes and locations. the design was "emissions driven" and produced a MUCH better acting "part throttle" carburetor with leaner settings.

AND, they were installed all the way into the early 90's on some heavy trucks. The 4180EG was an electric governor carburetor used in the OEM manufacture of many heavy truck fleets with gasoline engines..

[Barry_R]

Thanks for clearing the 4160 vs 4180 question up. I always like the extra accel pump bleed in the 4180...sure help with hot start on this swill we have for fuel these days.

How was I on the other history & benefits stuff?

You were Engineering - I was Marketing/Sales (with a serious car habit...)

[pamotorman]

IMHO, for racers the appeal of Holleys is the same as for Webers, profound and convenient tunability in the field.

The Holley wasn't really all that popular when it came out in '57, except possibly with the Ford crowd and they weren't exactly setting the world in fire at the time. True N/A engines were either injected, or they ran mulitple Strombers. Later triple Rochesters from GM on the 348 were favored as well, which let to trin power SBCs. By the early 60s GM was using dual AFBs and Ford was using dual Holleys, but Holley wasn't really considered superior.

The lauch pad for the Holley as the favored carb of choice for performance I believe was the advent of the 3310 750, and the 850. Which surprisingly, was developed by Smokey Yunick and Ralph Johnson at Smokey's shop. Ralph Johnson I believe is also the guy the worked with Crane on the Quick Lift rocker concept. Holley, Rochester, and Carter weren't interested, and Pontiac wasn't impressed. Bunkie Knudson at Chevrolet got Holley to build them. It was Chevy's Dominator of the early 60s. Just as Nascar gave us the Dominator thru Ford's money and input, the 4150 took off in part to Chevy's money and input on the 850. But you can thank Smokey and Ralph.
The modular design, tunability, and more than anything in the beginning, parts availabilty and support from Holley were important factors. They tore a page right from Zora Argus' play book on the SBC. But the 3310 750 VS and the 850VS that put Holley on the performance map.

ralph was working at crane as I used to stop to see him when I was in fla for the NASCAR races. I think when he was at smokey''s he was still working for GM

[Bob Hollinshead]

Thanks for sharing that history!

[pamotorman]

Thanks for clearing the 4160 vs 4180 question up. I always like the extra accel pump bleed in the 4180...sure help with hot start on this swill we have for fuel these days.

How was I on the other history & benefits stuff?

You were Engineering - I was Marketing/Sales (with a serious car habit...)

did you know Bob Lift at Holley as I had dealing with him back in the day ??

[Barry_R]

I did get the honor of briefly meeting Ralph when he was at Crane in the late 90s IIRC.

And yes - I did know Bob Lift. He a pretty cool guy. He was the "go to" guy for carbs for the Allison powered unlimited powerboats back them.

[pamotorman]

I did get the honor of briefly meeting Ralph when he was at Crane in the late 90s IIRC.

And yes - I did know Bob Lift. He a pretty cool guy. He was the "go to" guy for carbs for the Allison powered unlimited powerboats back them.

I was playing with 4 shooter carbs before holley came out and was having trouble with pump volume and I wrote to holley. they told me I was wasting my time but bob got back to me with the part numbers for the reo truck 2 barrel 50 cc pump. I had built 4 shooter carbs using AFB carbs before that but they had enough pump volume.