Junker engines punching above their weight

[MaxFlow]

Yeah. I like that kind of stuff.

[Dodge Freak]

I loved those days. I've also seen things done that worked that you would never think of unless your broke. Engines put together with NO gaskets, milling heads with a hand grinder and a file, I actually saw a guy bore a hole onetime in a block with a homemade extension on an angle grinder and sized a few grinding wheels to size to put in one .030 piston in a stock 350 block. Ran pretty damn good after the nerf ball/220 grit sandpaper hone job too.

I ran around with some real broke back yarders with skills. They had a knack for making shit work with nothing.

Doesn't what they were working on played part. I have a hard time believing the factory engines built today could be rebuild on the cheap-homemade boring jobs, no gaskets. Well there is Right Stuff.

The old engines were cast of better iron, were over designed for its HP ratings. They could withstand more abuse right from the start. Today we deal with aluminum heads, plastic intakes, many times more stroke. Big bore, short stroke engines are a thing of the past. Those engines could stand the abuse of out of balance assembly.

Todays engines also have it easier with OD trans, 3,000 rpm on long distance highway driving was once normal, today engines turn under 2,000 rpm on long drives. Yes todays engines last for 150,000-200,000 miles but I still feel the older engines were built better right from the start.

[Rizzle]

I loved those days. I've also seen things done that worked that you would never think of unless your broke. Engines put together with NO gaskets, milling heads with a hand grinder and a file, I actually saw a guy bore a hole onetime in a block with a homemade extension on an angle grinder and sized a few grinding wheels to size to put in one .030 piston in a stock 350 block. Ran pretty damn good after the nerf ball/220 grit sandpaper hone job too.

I ran around with some real broke back yarders with skills. They had a knack for making shit work with nothing.

Doesn't what they were working on played part. I have a hard time believing the factory engines built today could be rebuild on the cheap-homemade boring jobs, no gaskets. Well there is Right Stuff.

The old engines were cast of better iron, were over designed for its HP ratings. They could withstand more abuse right from the start. Today we deal with aluminum heads, plastic intakes, many times more stroke. Big bore, short stroke engines are a thing of the past. Those engines could stand the abuse of out of balance assembly.

Todays engines also have it easier with OD trans, 3,000 rpm on long distance highway driving was once normal, today engines turn under 2,000 rpm on long drives. Yes todays engines last for 150,000-200,000 miles but I still feel the older engines were built better right from the start.

LOL, there's a bunch of new engines going together with fewer and fewer gaskets nowadays right from the factory.
The old engines may have been made of cast iron, but they in no way were built with better material, and the designs didn't help.
Short strokes are thing of the past simply because the rotating assemblies built today can handle the stresses of the rpm with the longer strokes, with heads able to support the required air demand of the larger displacement/rpm at the same time.
As for the rpm/od deal - so when the main bearings started to show wear when o/d showed up, thats because it was easier on the engines, right?
Now i do agree that today's engines won't take the same crap "machine work", nothing high performance will. Its the cost of power, you can't ignore the tolerances.

If you think the older engines were built better you must be living in a delusional bubble.

As an addition to this thread - junkyard 4.8's/5.3's that have been turbo'd. So many of them are putting out good power simply b/c no-ones scared to turn up the boost a little, and they hold together for the most part while being CHEAP.

[crazyman]

I'm the a$$ here for saying any engine can be smartly slapped together and surprising everyone. It's not neccessarily in the build, but in the tune. How many high dollar builds grenade on the dyno with every tolerance hawked over?

[nickmckinney]

A cheap junker modular combo that I have sold probably near 100 sets of cams for is a junkyard Mark VIII shortblock, notch the pistons for the intake valves only, some have done this with sandpaper glued to an intake valve, install a stock set of 2V 99+ heads with only the springs changed, real cams, stock 2V plastic intake, and it makes 300HP at the tires with a table top flat torque curve from 3500 on up. Typically runs mid 11's in a 3200lb Mustang with a good driver and suspension. On pump gas you have to retard the spark about 3 degrees (it is just over 11.5:1) but on E85 or race gas the power will go above 300 and still stay ruler flat. I have seen this entire motor go together for just under $1000 a few times now and that includes the junkyard aluminum block.

[justahoby]

rizzle wrote..

Doesn't what they were working on played part. I have a hard time believing the factory engines built today could be rebuild on the cheap-homemade boring jobs, no gaskets. Well there is Right Stuff.

The old engines were cast of better iron, were over designed for its HP ratings. They could withstand more abuse right from the start. Today we deal with aluminum heads, plastic intakes, many times more stroke. Big bore, short stroke engines are a thing of the past. Those engines could stand the abuse of out of balance assembly.

Todays engines also have it easier with OD trans, 3,000 rpm on long distance highway driving was once normal, today engines turn under 2,000 rpm on long drives. Yes todays engines last for 150,000-200,000 miles but I still feel the older engines were built better right from the start.[/quote]

LOL, there's a bunch of new engines going together with fewer and fewer gaskets nowadays right from the factory.
The old engines may have been made of cast iron, but they in no way were built with better material, and the designs didn't help.
Short strokes are thing of the past simply because the rotating assemblies built today can handle the stresses of the rpm with the longer strokes, with heads able to support the required air demand of the larger displacement/rpm at the same time.
As for the rpm/od deal - so when the main bearings started to show wear when o/d showed up, thats because it was easier on the engines, right?
Now i do agree that today's engines won't take the same crap "machine work", nothing high performance will. Its the cost of power, you can't ignore the tolerances.

If you think the older engines were built better you must be living in a delusional bubble.

As an addition to this thread - junkyard 4.8's/5.3's that have been turbo'd. So many of them are putting out good power simply b/c no-ones scared to turn up the boost a little, and they hold together for the most part while being CHEAP.[/quote]

I am writing
I am not in disagreement, , but you are also addressing alot of details with generalization.

A boosted motor of any kind requires good ring and valve seal from the get go in order to fulfill a warranty period whether it was a corvair turbo or a shitsubishi eagle talon,

Although you say older iron may be stronger, metal processes and hardening for piston rods, and quality control ASIDE from design is much better. them hyperuretic crap pistons are being used in the same motors you speak of, people are going back on warranty claims due to piston slap..

the rod journal and rod are not of their own mind, and decide its not going to work with a tolerance dor a sbc is used on a ls..
Even one piece seal gn 2 sb used tighter tolerance on a more polish than a 350 from the 70s..

I could go on and on for the hows any why.....
you can buy a eciprocating assembly for a 383 under $1000 that will not break up to 8000rpm


People have boosted the heck out of lt1s also.... run them when the world should have blown up.

I remember a Car Craft article where they ran several pulls on a 250 hp 350 with mucho runs on nitrous... with a 600hp shot..
Their mistake was not proven but shown they should pulled a little more timing out of it.

Now to your statement "they wont take the same crap machine work" I would have to disagree with...I run honda tolerances on a 383 stroker, broke it in easy... because tolerance and the oil you run are everything in a tighter scenario... no if i slapped an ls with some offshore shit, it will run good too... I dont sit and lecture my part to last longer or shorter because its an ls part or sbc part , honda part, or subaru part... the part doesn't know shit.....

However I agree theat quality controll and automated machine accuracy, combined with GDNT(invented and rejected by americans originally, utilized by the japanese for 30+ years when sold by an american salesman for Bell Telephone, now we use it and have better system of metric tolerancing)

I am not in full disagreement... I Just know there is a whole reason why we have whats better..
So in theory, i could put together a STOCK shit, careless 5.3, and it wont last any less than a 350, the piston doesnt know its a 350 or 5.3.....its velocity, force, acceleration and stresses... not biased to the application

[Dan Timberlake]

I think if there are any parts in there with un-detected cracks in important locations they may cruelly define the service life of the engine.
If those cracks are deep enough to propagate rapidly the party may be quite short lived.
Care and experience can be used to determine how much wear is acceptable. As a starting point For passenger car use shop manuals include "wear limits."
The 1968 Plymouth shop manuals says if the block has less than 10 thou taper it is worth reloading your street hemi with a few fresh parts.

[Rizzle]

Doesn't what they were working on played part. I have a hard time believing the factory engines built today could be rebuild on the cheap-homemade boring jobs, no gaskets. Well there is Right Stuff.

The old engines were cast of better iron, were over designed for its HP ratings. They could withstand more abuse right from the start. Today we deal with aluminum heads, plastic intakes, many times more stroke. Big bore, short stroke engines are a thing of the past. Those engines could stand the abuse of out of balance assembly.

Todays engines also have it easier with OD trans, 3,000 rpm on long distance highway driving was once normal, today engines turn under 2,000 rpm on long drives. Yes todays engines last for 150,000-200,000 miles but I still feel the older engines were built better right from the start.

LOL, there's a bunch of new engines going together with fewer and fewer gaskets nowadays right from the factory.
The old engines may have been made of cast iron, but they in no way were built with better material, and the designs didn't help.
Short strokes are thing of the past simply because the rotating assemblies built today can handle the stresses of the rpm with the longer strokes, with heads able to support the required air demand of the larger displacement/rpm at the same time.
As for the rpm/od deal - so when the main bearings started to show wear when o/d showed up, thats because it was easier on the engines, right?
Now i do agree that today's engines won't take the same crap "machine work", nothing high performance will. Its the cost of power, you can't ignore the tolerances.

If you think the older engines were built better you must be living in a delusional bubble.

As an addition to this thread - junkyard 4.8's/5.3's that have been turbo'd. So many of them are putting out good power simply b/c no-ones scared to turn up the boost a little, and they hold together for the most part while being CHEAP.

I am writing
I am not in disagreement, , but you are also addressing alot of details with generalization.

A boosted motor of any kind requires good ring and valve seal from the get go in order to fulfill a warranty period whether it was a corvair turbo or a shitsubishi eagle talon,

Although you say older iron may be stronger, metal processes and hardening for piston rods, and quality control ASIDE from design is much better. them hyperuretic crap pistons are being used in the same motors you speak of, people are going back on warranty claims due to piston slap..

the rod journal and rod are not of their own mind, and decide its not going to work with a tolerance dor a sbc is used on a ls..
Even one piece seal gn 2 sb used tighter tolerance on a more polish than a 350 from the 70s..

I could go on and on for the hows any why.....
you can buy a eciprocating assembly for a 383 under $1000 that will not break up to 8000rpm


People have boosted the heck out of lt1s also.... run them when the world should have blown up.

I remember a Car Craft article where they ran several pulls on a 250 hp 350 with mucho runs on nitrous... with a 600hp shot..
Their mistake was not proven but shown they should pulled a little more timing out of it.

Now to your statement "they wont take the same crap machine work" I would have to disagree with...I run honda tolerances on a 383 stroker, broke it in easy... because tolerance and the oil you run are everything in a tighter scenario... no if i slapped an ls with some offshore shit, it will run good too... I dont sit and lecture my part to last longer or shorter because its an ls part or sbc part , honda part, or subaru part... the part doesn't know shit.....

However I agree theat quality controll and automated machine accuracy, combined with GDNT(invented and rejected by americans originally, utilized by the japanese for 30+ years when sold by an american salesman for Bell Telephone, now we use it and have better system of metric tolerancing)

I am not in full disagreement... I Just know there is a whole reason why we have whats better..
So in theory, i could put together a STOCK shit, careless 5.3, and it wont last any less than a 350, the piston doesnt know its a 350 or 5.3.....its velocity, force, acceleration and stresses... not biased to the application

Thought I'd clean it up so its easier to understand who's saying what.
My point wasn't that a new engine won't run with hack job tolerances, its just some of the factory parts aren't going to appreciate being sloppy, like the hyper-eutectic pistons and the thin/low tension factory rings. The mls gaskets like always won't work if the deck is rough. I think you misinterpreted my meaning of "they won't take the same crap machine work", it was not directed at machine work done on older engines, it was in reference to the grinder wheel/3 finger hone bore job style machine work mentioned earlier in the thread.
As for the iron quality of today vs old, i think today's is better as well.

[crazyman]

some have done this with sandpaper glued to an intake valve.

Thanks Nick! Now I know how to notch my sohc saturn pistons to clear the dohc intake valves. Hollistic engine building. It's all I can afford.............

[Dan Timberlake]

some have done this with sandpaper glued to an intake valve.

Thanks Nick! Now I know how to notch my sohc saturn pistons to clear the dohc intake valves. Hollistic engine building. It's all I can afford.............

ISKY and others used to sell tools that were essentially cutting tools brazed to a valve or a thick headed valve with a bunch of cutting edges machined in.
For creating piston notches truly matching angles and diameters it made a lot of sense to me.

[nickmckinney]

Yeah but they never made it in 7mm which is what my cheapskates need. I even tried brazing a carbide blade to a valve head and then made the valve tip into a square for a 1/4" ratchet extension to run it which worked good with a bounce spring but was too expensive for selling once we learned the sandpaper trick. To do sandpaper use an oversized valve if possible as it gives more radial clearance.

[Chipped tooth]

I have a original un touched 68 383 with a turbo that makes over 700 HP and over 800 tq, never been apart other than new valley pan cause old one rusted out.

I would love to see any of the new junk make those numbers un touched over 40 years old..... Thay will most likely be made into new soda cans by then LOL

Oh and its on its 5th year of abuse.

Technology is great but for bare bones low buck, old school is the way to go.

[BT428]

I once built a engine in early 90s which wasn't a junker but the owner was very tight.
It was a 351c standard bottom end, pistons sat .040 below deck ( he did not want to pay to have the block decked )
Piston were stock cast 5/64 rings.
Could not convince him to upgrade.
Heads were used but ported.
Put a solid cam 250@.050 and 260@.050 on 106 lc.
Weiand excelerator intake.
It ran 12.2 on its first pass in a 3500 pound falcon.
And he left after one run happy as.
Never raced it again

[GreaseDog]

As an addition to this thread - junkyard 4.8's/5.3's that have been turbo'd. So many of them are putting out good power simply b/c no-ones scared to turn up the boost a little, and they hold together for the most part while being CHEAP.

I believe that a lot of the success seen with engines built from whatever is available for the least cash outlay has a direct connection with the amount of abuse the operator is willing to put the engine through. I know I've seen it in the derby world... Guy goes out with a "big $" icebox engine, oil pressure gets a little low, or it starts making a noise that doesn't sounds quite right, he freaks out and shuts it off. Then you have guys like me... Bone stock L05 with a carb intake. It may not make the power of the icebox, but if I hit the starter and it will fire back up, it's not dead. Game on. The thing has 105k (mostly 4 miles at a time) on it before I started using it as a derby engine. It smokes like a chimney, and makes all kinda neat noises, still runs strong. But I just don't care... They're a dime a dozen. If I break it, I'll get another one, throw my intake on it, and run it till it pukes.

[justahoby]

I have a original un touched 68 383 with a turbo that makes over 700 HP and over 800 tq, never been apart other than new valley pan cause old one rusted out.

I would love to see any of the new junk make those numbers un touched over 40 years old..... Thay will most likely be made into new soda cans by then LOL

Oh and its on its 5th year of abuse.

Technology is great but for bare bones low buck, old school is the way to go.

Yup... Didn't have to pull an ls either... Did you tell the pistons and crank " you are now high tech thou shalt stay together?"
That's what I was trying to say earlier...
The part know only what they were done...... If its new, and it bows the f up that's what warranty is for.
If it ran for 40 years , its proven its damn self,
Ans ls piston may look different than a 327 piston, but it sure does not decide it will last longer due to whether it was CAD designed or done on a draft board.. It don't give a shit... They mass produce garbage now too