Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

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Mattax
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by Mattax »

vwchuck wrote:I have seen test results showing that synthetic oil does not hold as much heat as conventional oil. The oil itself runs cooler but engine components run much hotter. This shows up significantly in air/oil cooled engines like a porsche or VW.
or corvair. ;)
Seriously, be interested to know more, and is it really the base stock alone that makes the difference. That would let us know if the results can be extrapolated to other oils or if it was specific to those tested.
Now the synthetic oil has superior flow when cold and can take any temperature you can throw at it so you need to balance the good with the bad.
Totally agree. The OP should certainly be looking at pour point considering where he lives and the fact the engine sees street use as well as racing. I'm pretty sure Brad Penn's 0W-30 could be called a synthetic (and I thought they did - its a mix of Type I and III base stock IIRC).
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by lorax »

Mattax wrote:
vwchuck wrote:I have seen test results showing that synthetic oil does not hold as much heat as conventional oil. The oil itself runs cooler but engine components run much hotter. This shows up significantly in air/oil cooled engines like a porsche or VW.
or corvair. ;)
Seriously, be interested to know more, and is it really the base stock alone that makes the difference. That would let us know if the results can be extrapolated to other oils or if it was specific to those tested.
Now the synthetic oil has superior flow when cold and can take any temperature you can throw at it so you need to balance the good with the bad.
Totally agree. The OP should certainly be looking at pour point considering where he lives and the fact the engine sees street use as well as racing. I'm pretty sure Brad Penn's 0W-30 could be called a synthetic (and I thought they did - its a mix of Type I and III base stock IIRC).
Brad Penn does market their PENN -GRADE 1 0/30 as a "partial" synthetic. All their multi-grade PENN-GRADE 1 are marketed as "partial synthetic"
All their straight grade oils are Group I Penn crude.
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by BlackoutSteve »

FWIW, I had a solid flat tappet with 140/400 spring pressures and used Mobil1 15W50..
After time, I saw typical mild lifter wear, where the lifter base was slightly concave upon removal. Many, many miles with 4.11s and saw 7K redline on every outing.
Mobil1 in not even the best of the synthetics and I never had any issue.
There are too many other advantages to using a synthetic IMO.
Post pictures, or it didn't happen!
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by cv67 »

Oil running cooler but parts running hotter.

So thats implying the syn may not be removing as much heat from the part??

Id be curious to see these tests it does jog the mind some. Interesting.


I ran syn forever on a ZR1 which uses no rollers. Has over 160k on it now
Granted hardly any spring pressure but not sure I believe running syn on flat tappets is bad.
Im not an engine builder though.
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by mshred »

vwchuck wrote:I have seen test results showing that synthetic oil does not hold as much heat as conventional oil. The oil itself runs cooler but engine components run much hotter. This shows up significantly in air/oil cooled engines like a porsche or VW.
Now the synthetic oil has superior flow when cold and can take any temperature you can throw at it so you need to balance the good with the bad.
This is not good if that is true...I wanted to run synthetic to be able to take higher oil temperatures, and hopefully keep the same temperatures in the rest of the internals, not transfer MORE heat to them...that is strange that it does that. Are there any tests to back that up?
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by mshred »

rally wrote:Agree with other poster, get an oil cooler on this engine and use Brad Penn oil. Its real good oil for your engine application.
I like the BP oil...the oil cooler idea, not so much...Its more area that the oil has to be pumped through. It also SUCKS for the track and getting the oil temps up where they should be, especially if there is not thermostat controlling the opening of the cooler, and even then it is not ideal imo...Thats part of the reason why I want to avoid going with a cooler as well.
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by mshred »

Mattax wrote:I'm not really sure why this was your conclusion.
Here's what I got out of ther various post in responses as they relate to your specific engine and use. (This plus having read Widman, Haas, and number of other relevant aricles on oil).
1. The higher temperatures you observed are typical result of filling a block.
2. The temperatures and pressures observed are within acceptable range for continuous use (although I don't recall exactly what you posted at Moparts about top rpm and pressure, but IIRC the concensus was it was OK).
3. If you want to match the viscosity to be the same as it was before the block was filled, you can use a heavier wt oil or install an oil cooler.

Also II'm also not sure why you are asking such a broad question. First, a normal street driven production motor with a flat tappet cam can use some modern oils that have good modern antiwear packages without zddp. You want to figure out which ones those are, especialy as the big manufacturers, revise the products and marketing people revise the labels every 6 months? The big companies are not terribly interested in the small market. However they do have some market share that needs products that demand high temp, high resistance to sliding wear, similar to older flat tappet needs - eg european turbo deisel truck. And after all that, my impression is that the spring pressures on your motor are much higher than typical production vehicles used before the roller took over. That's why most of us stay with the tried and true. A very few folks can work with tribologists who really understand the addative packages and all the other characteristics, most of us can't afford that level of service which is normally for industry an big money race teams.

Second, as Widman and others explain, the term 'synthetic' can be very broadly used by the marketing people. So you can't just ask about 'synthetic' and expect a useful answer.

That said, in terms of physics, I can only think of two explanations as to any oil would result in lower temperatures. If the viscosity is actually better matched to the engine needs so more volume is being pumped through (instead of dumping out the releif valve). This would result in more heat being carried off. The other is either due to viscosity or additive package, there is less friction and therefore less heat. Hard to imagine that alone is significant.
I didn't realize that my question would be such a loaded one. Was just hoping that some may have some recommendations or atleast experience with synthetic oils, and possibly off the shelf ones with flat tappet applications. I know oils are always changing, which is why I thought maybe some of the experts here might know what works, has worked, and is still working, if at all, in terms of off the shelf applications.

Yes technically right now my oil temps and pressures are fine, and I expected my oil temps to go up with the filled block (that was a no brainer), but im just trying to do a little research ahead here and see what might work better for oil in my motor in a synthetic offering for flat tappets
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by mshred »

Mattax wrote:
vwchuck wrote:I have seen test results showing that synthetic oil does not hold as much heat as conventional oil. The oil itself runs cooler but engine components run much hotter. This shows up significantly in air/oil cooled engines like a porsche or VW.
or corvair. ;)
Seriously, be interested to know more, and is it really the base stock alone that makes the difference. That would let us know if the results can be extrapolated to other oils or if it was specific to those tested.
Now the synthetic oil has superior flow when cold and can take any temperature you can throw at it so you need to balance the good with the bad.
Totally agree. The OP should certainly be looking at pour point considering where he lives and the fact the engine sees street use as well as racing. I'm pretty sure Brad Penn's 0W-30 could be called a synthetic (and I thought they did - its a mix of Type I and III base stock IIRC).
I see the spec for "pour point" alot when looking at oils, but have no idea what the hell that means lol...could you possibly help explain that to me and how looking at it would help me?
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by mshred »

BlackoutSteve wrote:FWIW, I had a solid flat tappet with 140/400 spring pressures and used Mobil1 15W50..
After time, I saw typical mild lifter wear, where the lifter base was slightly concave upon removal. Many, many miles with 4.11s and saw 7K redline on every outing.
Mobil1 in not even the best of the synthetics and I never had any issue.
There are too many other advantages to using a synthetic IMO.
Experiences like yours sound good, but not to doubt you or anything, but I am still leary as most say the opposite of you (though I don't know if its from experience resulting in failure or just being the messenger of what they heard). My spring pressures are very similar to yours at 145/405, so its interesting to note this. Did you ever use additive in your oil like ZDDP or something of the like, or straight mobil 1?
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by lorax »

mshred wrote:
BlackoutSteve wrote:FWIW, I had a solid flat tappet with 140/400 spring pressures and used Mobil1 15W50..
After time, I saw typical mild lifter wear, where the lifter base was slightly concave upon removal. Many, many miles with 4.11s and saw 7K redline on every outing.
Mobil1 in not even the best of the synthetics and I never had any issue.
There are too many other advantages to using a synthetic IMO.
Experiences like yours sound good, but not to doubt you or anything, but I am still leary as most say the opposite of you (though I don't know if its from experience resulting in failure or just being the messenger of what they heard). My spring pressures are very similar to yours at 145/405, so its interesting to note this. Did you ever use additive in your oil like ZDDP or something of the like, or straight mobil 1?
Keep in mind that not all off the shelf synthetics are the same. More importantly, never even compare two oils by the same manufacture. Comparing Mobil 1 15/50 to Mobil 1 10/30 or 5/30 is a perfect example. Their 15/50 is probably one of the best flat tappet multi grade synthetic oils on the shelf. Their 5/30 and 10/30 are one of the worst, although in that grade they all pretty much suck. Mobils 0/40 and 10/40 Hi Milage are vastly better than their 5 or 10/30.
2 very very different oils with drastically different additive packages. No my word...Mobil's own words/
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by BlackoutSteve »

I didn't know that about the different Mobil1 oils.. I used 15W50 as a recomendation to "even out" oil pressure between hot and cold compared to the 25W50 I started out with. Old ways of thinking.. I wouldn't dare use a 50 weight today.
It also made some small difference to oil consumption.. No idea why, it was just a loose piston/bore clearance with a set of old TRWs.
No additives. Straight out of the bottle. :)
Post pictures, or it didn't happen!
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by lorax »

BlackoutSteve wrote:I didn't know that about the different Mobil1 oils.. I used 15W50 as a recomendation to "even out" oil pressure between hot and cold compared to the 25W50 I started out with. Old ways of thinking.. I wouldn't dare use a 50 weight today.
It also made some small difference to oil consumption.. No idea why, it was just a loose piston/bore clearance with a set of old TRWs.
No additives. Straight out of the bottle. :)
5 years or more ago it made very little differance which Mobil 1 you used. Now it does, and it has caused Mobil to get a unjustified bad rap.
I like to remind people that there are a lot less bad parts out there than there are bad oils, regardless whos name is on the bottle. Some oils simply do not belong in a hi performance engine. There are people that would never consider using a cheap no name oil in their engine , yet never consider that it is actually easier to grab the wrong, or even worse synthethic off the shelve, regardless the name.
Things were much simpler 10 years ago. Simpler still 30 years ago.
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by Mattax »

mshred wrote: I see the spec for "pour point" alot when looking at oils, but have no idea what the hell that means lol...could you possibly help explain that to me and how looking at it would help me?
Pictures & text to answer your question is in Richard Widman's paper on engine oil for Corvairs.
Download pdf in English from his hobby pages http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Links.html
or his business pages http://www.widman.biz/English/Selection/oil.html
I like the BP oil...the oil cooler idea, not so much...Its more area that the oil has to be pumped through. It also SUCKS for the track and getting the oil temps up where they should be, especially if there is not thermostat controlling the opening of the cooler, and even then it is not ideal imo...Thats part of the reason why I want to avoid going with a cooler as well.
My observation is that water temperature comes up to to thermostat temperatures (lets call it 180 for discussion) before oil temperatures get in that same range. If this is true - and I'l let others comment if my observations are relatively universal. - then a water to oil cooler would actually bring the oil closer to working temperatures before your first pass. There may be problems with routing and headers, etc, but I suspect it is doable. Firesleeve over the hoses would help protect them from the header's heat. Wrap that in reflective and it will further help by reflecting radiated heat from the headers.
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro »

I think its funny when the Mags say you shouldn't use a synthetic oil to do the FT cam break in because its "too slipery".

If that was true think how long a FT cam could live with synthetics?
'71 Z28 street strip car
Pump gas All motor SBC 427
3308 lbs-29x10.5 Hoosiers
NEW BEST ET
1.38 60' / 4.05 330' / 6.32@111.25mph

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99p13UK ... ture=share
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Re: Synthetic oil for Flat Tappet cams

Post by pdq67 »

Here is a link to 540rat's long oil test he did through the years.

http://boardreader.com/thread/Motor_Oil ... 1ssde.html

Years ago, oil used to smell like gear lube and was a dark teal color.

Now it look's like pee and doesn't have much smell at all! But it protects the cats for the EPA....

Somewhere there is a thread on the failure of solid roller lifters and cams when syns came out. Hunt it up.

I always had a funny feeling that the new type syns back then were so slick, that just possibly the roller wheels were sliding on the lobes because the syns were so oily for want of a better word vs dino oil?? Thus causing MAYBE brinnelling??????

That, and the lack of additives......

And it's been proven by I think the Canadian Air Force that 100 % pure Soy Bio-diesel is SLICK due to the esters in it. Add a 1/2 of a 1/2 pint on top of a fresh oil change and watch your engines internal friction drop like 3 to 4 percent!!!

I've often wondered if this isn't what ROIL is made of??

pdq67
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