Aluminum rod reduces shock load to crank

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Jon,
I only see Brooks and C&A on AJs site. Was there something else you wanted us to see?

Kevin.
STOP IT

I'll take a picture of one of the rods when I get home and post it.
It might be that only some teams are allowed to buy them.

Yep.......gotta be on "the deal" !

Or since there are only about 20 possible customers for certain parts, and he already supplies all of them, there is no need to advertise those parts.

[Kevin Johnson]

HIP at 850 degrees F. My, that was difficult.



Edit: Damn. I forgot I should not make everything a science project or contingent on READING this and other patents. My apologies to Dr. No as well.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

HIP at 850 degrees F. My, that was difficult.

What are you talking about?
An aluminum HIP (hot isostatic pressed) rod?
For a nitro engine?

[Kevin Johnson]

HIP at 850 degrees F. My, that was difficult.

What are you talking about?
An aluminum HIP (hot isostatic pressed) rod?
For a nitro engine?

You were asking for a way to circumvent the patent. Read the patent. Understand why 800 degrees as a stated limit is important. Add the HIP at 850 degrees to the processing. It will counteract the volatizing of the trace elements. You are simply applying a powder or casting processing technique to the manufacturing process but it is outside the scope of the patent.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

HIP at 850 degrees F. My, that was difficult.

What are you talking about?
An aluminum HIP (hot isostatic pressed) rod?
For a nitro engine?

You were asking for a way to circumvent the patent. Read the patent. Understand why 800 degrees as a stated limit is important. Add the HIP at 850 degrees to the processing. It will counteract the volatizing of the trace elements. You are simply applying a powder processing technique to the manufacturing process but it is outside the scope of the patent.

Try it and see how that works out for you and report back how difficult it was.

[Kevin Johnson]

Try it and see how that works out for you and report back how difficult it was.

Knowledge freely imparted has no value.



Remember, I trained and worked as a tech thirty years ago. This is pretty basic stuff.

[lorax]

On a current Nitro car with a competitive tune the force on the rod is enough to deform the rod in a way that spreads the bore.
Presently there is only one rod design and material that is holding up for aggressive tune-ups.
The material and forging process is patented so only one supplier can make them for now.
http://www.alanjohnsonperformance.com/
One of the few times that a patent had any significant impact on a technology in drag racing.

If/when power levels increase it may be nessesary to find an alternative rod design and or material.

The patent is 10 years old. I am pretty sure Bill Miller has sold a few rods to some of the bigger fuel teams in the past 10 years. Using the same Alcoa 7075 T7 extruded bar stock using the same basic forging process.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Try it and see how that works out for you and report back how difficult it was.

Knowledge freely imparted has no value.



Remember, I trained and worked as a tech thirty years ago. This is pretty basic stuff.

Kevin, try this experiment, maybe it will help you understand.
Make a list of the top 10 nitro teams, tell them you have some HIP connecting rods that you would like them to try, see if you get any bites.
While you are at it, send them to a link wiki link on Transcendental numbers.
Then you can explain how it would be a good idea for them to risk a champoinship hunt worth $millions to them to buy unproven rods that likely cost more than the rods they have now.
Then you can explain how if the rods fail and AJ cuts off thier supply how they will finish the season or run the next 5 years.
Then you can explain how it would be a good idea to get into a patent suit (even if you could win) against a guy that flies his own jet to the races and supplies essential parts to everyone and sells tune-up specs that make the difference between running and competing for many.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

The patent is 10 years old. I am pretty sure Bill Miller has sold a few rods to some of the bigger fuel teams in the past 10 years. Using the same Alcoa 7075 T7 extruded bar stock using the same basic forging process.

Big difference in selling a bunch of rods in the last 10 than selling competitve rods today.

[lorax]

The patent is 10 years old. I am pretty sure Bill Miller has sold a few rods to some of the bigger fuel teams in the past 10 years. Using the same Alcoa 7075 T7 extruded bar stock using the same basic forging process.

Big difference in selling a bunch of rods in the last 10 than selling competitve rods today.

Force must be selling some seriously old rods out of his store. Last time I wen to his open house he sold more a few Bill Mller rods. Maybe they came out of Ashley's old comp dragster Maybe they aren't using an agressive tune

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

The patent is 10 years old. I am pretty sure Bill Miller has sold a few rods to some of the bigger fuel teams in the past 10 years. Using the same Alcoa 7075 T7 extruded bar stock using the same basic forging process.

Big difference in selling a bunch of rods in the last 10 than selling competitve rods today.

Force must be selling some seriously old rods out of his store. Last time I wen to his open house he sold more a few Bill Mller rods. Maybe they came out of Ashley's old comp dragster Maybe they aren't using an agressive tune

They may not have a choice. If AJ won't sell to you, you have to run whatever you can.
That might mean they have to change rods more often or tune to keep them alive.
I know of a large supply of rods that are sitting on a shelf because they won't run in a competitve nitro car today and they are too heavy to run in an alcohol car.

[Kevin Johnson]

Wait. Wait --- it's coming to me.

Aha.

Possibly racing is about optimizing engineering in a given application. It is good training for logical thinking; for creative thinking.

If everything was about money I sure would not have wasted my time pointing out a simple way to accomplish an implicit question that you posed. You should spend a few minutes reading back over the thread to find it.

When I was at USF many of the engineering students were classmates of mine in a class introducing them to advanced mathematics. I feel pretty certain most of them knew already what a transcendental number was. High school subject for me.

Try it and see how that works out for you and report back how difficult it was.

Knowledge freely imparted has no value.



Remember, I trained and worked as a tech thirty years ago. This is pretty basic stuff.

Kevin, try this experiment, maybe it will help you understand.
Make a list of the top 10 nitro teams, tell them you have some HIP connecting rods that you would like them to try, see if you get any bites.
While you are at it, send them to a link wiki link on Transcendental numbers.
Then you can explain how it would be a good idea for them to risk a champoinship hunt worth $millions to them to buy unproven rods that likely cost more than the rods they have now.
Then you can explain how if the rods fail and AJ cuts off thier supply how they will finish the season or run the next 5 years.
Then you can explain how it would be a good idea to get into a patent suit (even if you could win) against a guy that flies his own jet to the races and supplies essential parts to everyone and sells tune-up specs that make the difference between running and competing for many.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Wait. Wait --- it's coming to me.

Aha.

Possibly racing is about optimizing engineering in a given application. It is good training for logical thinking; for creative thinking.

If everything was about money I sure would not have wasted my time pointing out a simple way to accomplish an implicit question that you posed. You should spend a few minutes reading back over the thread to find it.

When I was at USF many of the engineering students were classmates of mine in a class introducing them to advanced mathematics. I feel pretty certain most of them knew already what a transcendental number was. High school subject for me.

Sorry if this is news to you but it is all about the money that comes from satisfying sponsors with wins associated with their advertising.
Every nitro team is struggling to afford to race, hence the relocation to Brownsburg and crew member pay cuts.

[X-file]

You could make an aluminium rod that has exactly the same rigidity as a steel rod.It would weigh the same as a steel rod,or about 99.8% as much as a steel rod.In round figures,aluminium is 1/3 the density and its elastic modulus is 1/3.

All this means is a LIGHTER rod (if it's the same length) will stretch or compress more for a given force,REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS ALUMINIUM OR STEEL.If your aluminium rods are 2/3 the weight of a steel rod,they have more cushion and will stretch/compress 50% more.If you made a steel rod the same weight,it would do exactly the same.

A rod that has more length will also stretch or compress more for a given applied force.

(Length divided by weight) would be in proportion to the amount the rod will stretch/compress for a given force.That's a fair indication of the "cushion" effect.It doesn't matter if it's aluminium or steel,unless the length/weight ratio changes.

[digger]

it is true that flexible components can absorb high frequency or extremely short duration load spikes (from poor combustion/knock etc) just like a suspension system. The crank, rod, piston is a spring mass system afterall