Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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wishicouldbe
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Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by wishicouldbe » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:00 pm

360, bored 60, forged flat top pistons, stock crank and rods, plasma moly top rings, edelbrock heads, comp cams BMT, rpm air gap...

Freshly built engine with about 100 miles, has lots of blow by, smoke out the exhaust when you give it part or full throttle but not at idle.. Is it the rings not seating or something else possibly.. If its the rings how can I get them to seat where it with quit smoking

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by Coloradoracer » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:11 pm

Possible broken ring on install? Upside down install by accident? Rings should be seated by now. If not, you've got issues........might be time to check things out.....
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wishicouldbe
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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by wishicouldbe » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:13 pm

I've always heard the chromoly rings take along time and people have this trouble often.. But I don't know about the plasma moly

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by hodge » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:18 pm

If every thing has been done rite, you must put the engine under load to seat the rings. it will take 5 to 7 mid to full throttle pulls, not to high of an rpm, but to close to 5000 rpm. this will force the rings to seat.


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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by Cubic_Cleveland » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:44 pm

wishicouldbe wrote:I've always heard the chromoly rings take along time and people have this trouble often.. But I don't know about the plasma moly
Moly rings 'seat' easy, just do what hodge says.

Chrome rings aren't hard to break in either, most of the problem are due to hone finish and/or not enough load.

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by Skylor » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:28 pm

Could be a leaky intake gasket on the bottom of the ports, and sucking oil in to one or more ports. You could pull the plugs and see which ones have oil on them. If not all the plugs are oily, do a compression test, if pretty even all around, my guess would be a bad intake seal..yeah, a leak down test is better

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by wishicouldbe » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:16 am

What if it wasn't honed with the right grit what can I do to fix it now without pulling it back apart. I've heard of using Bon ami

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by justahoby » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:31 am

wishicouldbe wrote:What if it wasn't honed with the right grit what can I do to fix it now without pulling it back apart. I've heard of using Bon ami
you could try that, but before dumping powdered egg shell ( Bon Ami) or usung any quick seat powder i would run it up to good operating temp(you are running a thermostat I assume), and as said good full throttle acceleration, and spank that thing like you stole it... seat them rings, also be sure the PCV valve isnt letting oil by sucking like a straw
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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by JoePorting » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:59 am

If you're using synthetic oil, replace it with regular 20/50 oil and do a number of full power runs to reseat the rings. I found situations where synthetic oil unseats the rings. I think there needs to be a certain amount of friction between the ring and cylinder to keep the rings seated. Synthetic oil is too good and unseats the rings IMO.
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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by hodge » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:33 am

JoePorting wrote:If you're using synthetic oil, replace it with regular 20/50 oil and do a number of full power runs to reseat the rings. I found situations where synthetic oil unseats the rings. I think there needs to be a certain amount of friction between the ring and cylinder to keep the rings seated. Synthetic oil is too good and unseats the rings IMO.


x2 this is the things we take for granted , no syn oil on breakin. I break in all my engines on the stand but under no power iit is not un commen to have oil running out the exaust ports. install the engine put it to power and no more oil.

PS We are asuming you have honed and plateued the cyl walls or equivalent, at the ring manufacturers specs.

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:56 am

Leak down test at TDC and being its .060 over and its a GM block it needs to be plate honed with torque plate or its not going to seal.

I have seen nonplate honed engines blow oil out the breathers for 2 years of circle track racing. I have leaked some down after 2 or 3 years of racing and it appears no ring seal.

You can have the best finish money can buy but if those cylinders are not round once the heads are bolted on its not going to seal.

Here is a perfect example of no ring seal after many miles but blowing oil out the breathers, Tell how many miles it will take to get these ring to seal. ???

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by wyrmrider » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:09 am

as others have said
try breaking it again
if this vehicle is streetable
warm it up
make a hard pull up to the legal speed limit
then back off the throttle and let it coast down
do this about 10 times
if your cylinders are glazed you are SOL
if track only do not just click it off, allow it to coast down to create some vacuum, pull up some oil, and help flush crap away
then do it as said above

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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:27 pm

wyrmrider wrote:as others have said
try breaking it again
if this vehicle is streetable
warm it up
make a hard pull up to the legal speed limit
then back off the throttle and let it coast down
do this about 10 times
if your cylinders are glazed you are SOL
if track only do not just click it off, allow it to coast down to create some vacuum, pull up some oil, and help flush crap away
then do it as said above

Now how come engines that have not been plate honed and have run for many laps never seal up and even after 2 or 3 years of running and have poor leak down numbers.

That being said I have pulled engines down with .003 of distortion is what I have seen cause poor ring seal and show signs of blowby under the top ring. After plate honing with a good hone not a make believe hone the engines seal up from start up. The customers don't need no rags for the breathers.

I have seen engines on the dyno never seal up after many pulls.

A round cylinder once the heads are bolted on is key to having good ring seal and using the proper abaisives makes a big differance as well.
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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by Strange Magic » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:32 pm

.003 is a disaster with the deck plate on. Personally I would consider .0015 out of shape a disaster when measured with a deck plate in place. The deck plate will simulate how that cylinders shape will actually be when the heads are on. There is significant cylinder shape changes with and without a plate on. All blocks that leave my shop, when finished are plus .0002 and minus .0000.

The engine rings on thier pistons are assembled dry. The cylinders are cleaned with trans fluid and then wiped thoroughly dry. Non synthetic oil only through the entire dyno session as well as the first day at the track on many occasions. Sometimes I will go over to synthetic on the last hit, only if I feel the engine is very stable and I have enough hits on it on the dyno.
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Re: Having trouble getting rings to seat, I guess

Post by PackardV8 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:46 pm

Now how come engines that have not been plate honed and have run for many laps never seal up and even after 2 or 3 years of running and have poor leak down numbers. . . I have seen engines on the dyno never seal up after many pulls.
X2 on that Carl. I recently pulled down an old marine flathead six with chrome rings which had run for years without the rings completely seated.
.003 is a disaster with the deck plate on. Personally I would consider .0015 out of shape a disaster when measured with a deck plate in place. The deck plate will simulate how that cylinders shape will actually be when the heads are on. There is significant cylinder shape changes with and without a plate on. All blocks that leave my shop, when finished are plus .0002 and minus .0000.
A deck plate is the best tool we have on a day-to-day basis. I've never done hot honing but I've always wanted to try it and measure the differences hot and cold. It's obvious there are differences with heat in the block. The thinner the cylinder walls the more distortion with traditional power stroke honing. Going down the bore line quickly, finishing with a perfect reading, it'll be off when the block cools. If the customer will pay for perfect, it's a must to get close and then let the block completely cool. Then do the last few tenths finish on holes one and three on a side, flip and do two and four on the other side, back to the other side and so on. This PITA method requires two deck plates, so it's going to cost more.
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