Air cooled VW zero oil pressure... HELP!!!

[ProPower engines]

sounds more like an aftermarket cheapo pump issue.
Back when I used to do lots of those engines there was german replacement parts and parts made in Brazill.
The german parts were always better quality and correct fitment for the application.
Unless the bearing clearance is way too much on the mains and rods oil pressure should not be a problem with a correct fitting pump.
From what I was told to use by an old factory guy that had a shop near me the stuff to seal the case halfs was like permatex form a gasket #2. The stuff that would harden. Regular aviation form a gasket works as well but silicone was a no no.
It would add clearance to the mains and reduce oil pressure. I always used aviation form a gasket with no leaks.
The other thing was the main line ofter needed to be line bored and the larger OD bearings were ofter not used in the case of a DIY re-ring deal that did not know to check.
Not sure who is making replacement parts these days but the stuff is getting hard to find.And just stupidly priced.
Back in the early 80's we used to get a drop in big bore kit bearings and gaskets reman crank and rods lightened flywheel and an 009 mechanical advance distributor with a non resistor rotor and #3 in phase not retarded 4degs all for
under $500inc tax's from the import parts warehouse in town.
Dual port heads were $100 complete each and a complete tin set was $85.Sorry for the reminising

[Pontiac_Puller]

Sounds like you really got yourself into a mess.

You're tellin' me.

I used the Permatex stuff as well, no other way to get proper crush on the bearings. The case is right, as checked with a bore gauge.

Something is definitely out of whack. Obviously it's all coming apart, so hopefully whatever the culprit is sticks out like a sore thumb. I was just really hoping there was a way I could wave my magic wand and everything would be fixed. I seem to be getting nothing but botched engine jobs lately, and after this I think I'm done solving other peoples f*ck ups. I bet if I'd been able to grab this bull by the horns from the get-go I'd be in much better shape. This guy bought the car from a guy who had someone else build the engine. I'd love to go shove it down the guys throat, but I think there's some bad history between my customer and the builder, so here I am.

I just can't get my head around the fact that there was pressure, and now there is none. I know there is a drop once it gets hot, but it never really got up to temperature, and it cooled right off between attempts. For all I know there could have been a blockage causing the high pressure, and it blew out. Who knows.

Much of this was customer supplied parts, (don't you love guys like that?) so as easy as it would be to say it's his parts fault, I have a hard time sticking a guy with a bill for an engine that's not fixed yet. I'm probably not going to make a dime over this, after how much time I've spent on it alone.

I'm just tired, it's after 3am, I should get some sleep. Thanks again guys.

[PFM]

Puller,

Loctite 573 or 574 between the case halves in the crank web area and yamabond Or Threebond 1104 around the perimeter for sealing it up. Before I broke it all down I would pull the pump out and check it out very carefully. It is 4 bolts far less than the whole case. If it has issues like loose in bore or other not so obvious ones replace it with a good quality unit and try again. If you do not see a pump issue do what you gotta do.

Good luck,

Stay tuned,

PFM

[ProPower engines]

From memory some cases had dual oil pressure reliefs.
I think the cases maked AE had the dual reliefs.These were the later dual port engines in the Bug's and some transporter applications as well for the updated oil cooler.
You may want to look for that when you get it in half again.

[tsanchez]

Pull the pump cover off, check to make sure the shaft is engaging the cam enough, it may work for a bit then quit. I have had to weld on an ext to the shaft before so it would work. Also make sure the pickup tube is not cracked where it goes into the case, and if using the extention for the sump I always weld it to the old tube.

[MODNROD]

If the cases are machined for "full flow", you then also need the matching oil pump, a std one will bypass oil around. Check the oil pump......
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=5_126
The oil pick ups come loose sometimes, drawing air.
There are about 20000 little oil gallery plugs, all covering small little seemingly insignificant little holes where crap can collect.......
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=407020
If the oil cooler is blocked it will just get hot, but oil still flows.

I don't know where you live in relation to other VW techs, but even from the other side of the world, this bloke is one of the most knowledgeable, and also one of the nicest, in the industry......
http://www.aircooled.net/about-aircoole ... s/contact/

These cars can be frustrating little buggers..........

[Pontiac_Puller]

Found the problem! Got 'er all fingered out.

I simply could not wrap my head around how it had pressure, then nothing, without something wearing horribly. Either the bearings would be shot, or the pump would be, but in either case there would be debris in the oil, which always came out looking spick and span. Even if the pump was no good because it was made wrong, it would have been showing low pressure all along. It made no sense. I pulled the pump just to be sure though, it spec'd out right, and I found no wear anywhere, other than normal break in wear.

So I figured something had to have happened inside that caused the change. My best guess from all the responses was that the pickup had come loose somewhere, and it was sucking air. If that was the case, it might still get a bit of oil, but with air in the system the sender wouldn't register pressure.

I pulled the oil cover off, with the screen, and stuck a rubber tipped blower nossel up the pickup. I thought to myself, if there's a leak, I'll find it soon enough. But it held pretty good pressure. I undid the sender to see if any oil would shoot out, and no, nothing, not a drop. The sender is right after the pump, so at this point it was pretty clear what the problem was.. a blockage somewhere between the bottom of the pan, and the sender. I pulled the filter off, and blew air back through the system, and BOOM!! Out blows a big chunk of shop rag, just like the one that was stuck up inside the pickup when it first came to the shop.

What I THINK happened was that a small part of rag broke off after the pickup got plugged up. It settled somewhere in the pickup after the oil system went dry, and baked in some hideaway corner. When I flushed everything out, it must have still been trapped somewhere, and wouldn't come out. Once fresh oil was added, and was flowing past it long enough, it came loose and jammed up somewhere just before the pump. That's my best guess anyways, it's as good as any.

I dumped oil back into where I blew air, and kept blowing it back through, until I was confident there was nothing left. Buttoned the motor back together, put 10w30 in the case, fired it up, and within seconds I had more oil pressure than I had hoped for. If anything, I have too much now. Seriously.

After it got up to proper temperature, about 20 minutes of run time at part throttle, I let it settle down to an idle, and got 22psi. At highway rpms I get about 45 or so. Let it off its chain, it peaks at 80! Someone must have tweaked the pressure bypass a little bit, but I'm not complaining. Now just need to give it a good tune job, and be done. Dual 2 barrels on dual port heads. Yay!

The stupid part of this whole thing was that it could have been completely avoided had the original builder put a screen on the pickup. All the silicone, and the shop rag would have been blocked from getting up there, and worst case scenario would have been that it plugged the screen, and dropped pressure. A guy would have pulled the cover, and found the issue right away, solving it for good. ALWAYS USE A SCREEN ON A PICKUP!!!!!! It's necessary.

Thank you to everyone who responded, I really appreciate any time you guys took out of your day to give suggestions. If any of you were closer, the beer would be on me tonight.

[Desertbusman]

Glad you resolved it. That problem was about the worst one I've ever heard of. Didn't get a response posted in time but here it was anyway-

Hi, Just passing by and heard your HELP!!!
A bummer when someone abuses an engine like that. Sound like you have some of it straightened out. Although junk the cooler as it's toast because it can't be cleaned out.
I'll run thru the prior posts, maybe not in order-
You can't externally run the pump but they can be difficult to prime. But if you had initial flow it is primed. If you pull it apart it's nice to pack the pump suction side for quick prime. I use white assembly lube for that.
10W-30 or 20W-50 isn't your lack of pressure problem but might or might not be the best final viscosity choice for your climate location.
You might not have gotten it clean without pulling the gallery plugs but unlike some American Iron there are no plugs that when left out would short circuit the lube system. Any missing plug would be dumping on the floor.
I'm not aware of any pumps, cheapo or not, that won't at least do the job although obviously some are better than others. Yes, the pump O.D. needs a good fit into the engine case or it will suck air on the suction side or loose some flow on the outlet side. But it doesn't sound like either would be your issue since it first self primed and then built pressure.
If you don't get it resolved you can pull the pump cover without disturbing the pump. And then pull out the drive gear to see if there is any obvious problem. Sometimes the drive gear can get loose on the shaft (yours probably isn't) and you can check the drive tang engagement into the cam.
Next post- No, a T-1 is not usually difficult to prime (a T-4 can be). A new build should prime at starter speed only. The filter/suction screen is stock and the only original means of filtration. It keeps nuts and bolts out and will catch silicone pieces. Only retards remove them unless-- I'll mention the filter later. Deep sumps are pretty much a standard upgrade on any performance and many non performance engines. Don't knock them. ACVW's in hot climates need all the oil cooling they can get and sumps are wonderful. Stock engines only hold 5.3 puny pints of oil which is too marginal for stock and no good for a performance engine. I run 6 quarts on my engines. Sumps are fantastic unless they run to cool in cold climate conditions. 15 years and never had a problem with them hanging low. Yes, excessive crank end thrust could drop pressure. If the line bore is bad the saddles arn't supporting the main bearing and the whole thing is shot anyway. Cooler, clogged or not has nothing to do with your lack of pressure problem. Pulling the pressure sender will tell you if you if the pump isn't pumping only. Or it will drench your floor. But don't think the case port is 1/8" NPT to screw in a pressure gauge. It will screw in and screw up the stock 10mm threads.

Now if it had an aftermarket filter mount on it then the case probably would have been full flowed to get the oil flow outside the engine. That's great as every ACVW should be fullflowed at least to run filtration. The normal way is a full flow pump and pump cover with the outlet and a machined case port for oil entering back into the case. The pump needs it's internal outlet port plugged so fluid can exit the cover. A Gene Berg (and maybe other brands have an adjustable relief in the cover. They can and do sometimes fail. So check that. If the internal plug was missing from the pump then it would bypass the external fullflow system but wouldn't cause your problem. Also nothing wrong with FRAM BTW.
Here's the deal about the cooler and your double valve case. And BTW that is a great lube schematic that is posted. The valve at the flywheel end is the system relief valve and controls system pressure. If it hangs up open it can dump all the oil back to the sump and you would have no pressure. If it hangs up closed the system will probably over pressure and blow the cooler or your external aftermarket filter. Particularly on a cold startup. The valve at the pulley end only controls oil to the cooler or not to the cooler. It does not control system pressure. It just diverts oil thru the cooler (when oil is hot and pressure is lower) or it sends it directly to the main gallery if pressure is high. It's the temperature control system only. If pressure is high and is diverted to the main gallery instead of the cooler inlet the pressure will still get from the main gallery to the outlet side of the cooler. EIther way, if pressure is too high it is apt to blow the cooler. And plugged or not it doesn't matter and is not part of your pressure problem and would only effect oil cooling.
Deep sump or not, or deep sump pickup extension falling off, the pickup is below the oil level and can only be a problem if the pickup tube is loose in the case.
Based on your high pressure at startup, anything involved with the suction side or pickup, or priming is of no concern with your problem. Your oil should be of no concern, but only in regards to your problem. A clogged cooler has nothing to do with your problem unless it flushed out a hunk of silicone and disabled the relief.
Now as you study the schematic be aware that the labeling of the two valves is technically backwards. The valve at the flywheel controls max total system pressure and therefore is the system relief valve. The pulley end valve only controls flow to the cooler or directly into the main gallery. Yes, it's based on pressure which is based on oil temp and oil viscosity.

Another thing is you might review the external full flow system althought that is not your problem however a relief on the pump cover could cause your issue.

Hope that helps.

[Pontiac_Puller]

Thanks for the belated reply.

The extra sump on this thing did hang too low, but it's what the customer wanted. The car itself is off the ground high enough, it just hangs lower than everything else. If anything got under the car, it would catch this before anything else. Again, the customer is always right.

It all turned out well in the end. Customer was happy, I got paid, and didn't have to bite the bullet, other than some lost shop time.

[dieselgeek]

Good find!! glad you got it figured out and it's cool that you updated the post.

[MODNROD]

Thanks for the update, I was wondering how it panned out.

Shop rag left in the sump?!?!?!?!

[Pontiac_Puller]

Yes. Shop rag left in the sump. Not mine, the last guy's.

[Desertbusman]

Ouch! That would be a pretty difficult place to leave a shop rag. Glad you got compensated for the effort you put into it.