SpeedTalk Store - Opinion Columns

CNC porting

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

CNC porting

Postby T-flow » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:06 pm

Whats the going rate these day's to Digitalize a port?

Thanks, T-flow
T-flow Cylinder Heads
www.tflowheads.com
T-flow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:36 pm

Re: CNC porting

Postby mystic1582 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:42 pm

Going out on a limb here....But!

My guess is between $50/$100 per hour.

There my be a minimum charge as well, or a set up fee.

All that being said you want to leave with a file that someone can either open in a program like Pro Engineer, Inventor, Solidworks, or Mastercam.

If you want to have the port work replicated your file needs to be translated or "post-processed" to a CNC machine, which also means a CAM program needs to be able to open the file, create G-code, and have the proper post processor for the CNC machine that will create the chips.
mystic1582
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: CNC porting

Postby cspeier » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:44 pm

$1000-$1500
cspeier
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1701
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:31 pm
Location: Hays Kansas

Re: CNC porting

Postby Big Speed » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:00 am

Mystic explained it exactly correct ! Chad is right about the money. This where all the work is...in data editing to create the final program. Once you have it...well you know...push the button :) This engineering fee with digitizing is necessary...the equipment is not cheap..nor is the time. We had a "handshake agreement" once to do a digitizing project for someone with a six sets of heads minimum and a fifty sets a year sales pitch so we waived the fee...I put hours and hours into it, had cutters made etc... we did six sets...and thats all! Never again will I do it with no engineering fee. What I will do is pay back the fee over time in discounts per set once the programs are running. Cheers , John
Ceralli Competition Engines & Checkered Flag Machine
Racing engines , CNC head porting and induction development
http://www.checkeredflagmachine.net/
Big Speed
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:14 pm
Location: Paterson N.J.

Re: CNC porting

Postby cboggs » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:17 am

I'm $2500 to $3000 to do complete digitize, smooth and work the surface files to get them ready to
cut, .. .. then build all of the tool paths and write the multi stage program for complete cnc.

Too much time involved to do it correctly for anything less, .. at $1000 most shops are
loosing money if you have typical business overhead.

But the difference is I guess I'm typically doing work with greater detail the the typical
mass produced cnc. I'll have a solid 3-4 days of work into it.

curtis
Race Flow Development
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com
User avatar
cboggs
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1876
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:03 pm
Location: virginia beach, VA

Re: CNC porting

Postby Big Speed » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:57 am

I agree with you Curtis...at $1,500 we're just breaking even to even losing a bit engineering wise on a basic V8 head with nothing fancy. I coun't on some kind of return once the programs are running. We quoted $3,000 on a recent DOHC project. ...every exhaust port different!!! probably still not enough and I think they thought it was too much...because they have'nt bit on it yet :). Try explaining to some that the digitizing equipment alone costs $25,000...they think we're hobbiests and do this for fun. Johnny
Ceralli Competition Engines & Checkered Flag Machine
Racing engines , CNC head porting and induction development
http://www.checkeredflagmachine.net/
Big Speed
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:14 pm
Location: Paterson N.J.

Re: CNC porting

Postby cboggs » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:01 am

Big Speed wrote:I agree with you Curtis...at $1,500 we're just breaking even to even losing a bit engineering wise on a basic V8 head with nothing fancy. I coun't on some kind of return once the programs are running. We quoted $3,000 on a recent DOHC project. ...every exhaust port different!!! probably still not enough and I think they thought it was too much...because they have'nt bit on it yet :). Try explaining to some that the digitizing equipment alone costs $25,000...they think we're hobbiests and do this for fun. Johnny


Well the more small shops that buy cnc machines, the more people with marginal business skills will
try to compete on price. Good work takes time and time is money, .. simple as that. Charge for quality
and let the "cheap" work go somewhere else.

Funnest thing I ever heard., . "we'll make up for the small profit in volume", .. what that really means is " we'll just make a small profit at a great volume."
Not a very solid business model but a very common one.
Race Flow Development
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com
User avatar
cboggs
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1876
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:03 pm
Location: virginia beach, VA

Re: CNC porting

Postby smeg » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:28 am

cboggs wrote:
Big Speed wrote:I agree with you Curtis...at $1,500 we're just breaking even to even losing a bit engineering wise on a basic V8 head with nothing fancy. I coun't on some kind of return once the programs are running. We quoted $3,000 on a recent DOHC project. ...every exhaust port different!!! probably still not enough and I think they thought it was too much...because they have'nt bit on it yet :). Try explaining to some that the digitizing equipment alone costs $25,000...they think we're hobbiests and do this for fun. Johnny


Well the more small shops that buy cnc machines, the more people with marginal business skills will
try to compete on price. Good work takes time and time is money, .. simple as that. Charge for quality
and let the "cheap" work go somewhere else.

Funnest thing I ever heard., . "we'll make up for the small profit in volume", .. what that really means is " we'll just make a small profit at a great volume."
Not a very solid business model but a very common one.


Curtis,
There are more and more small shops setting up these machines in Australia all the time and I have just realized that I am not charging anywhere near enough
For my cnc work.
I think I will do as you say and let them fight it out for the price and let my results speak for themself.
I am very lucky to have some head manufacturers for my customers and they are loyal because I look after them. BUT, these machines are expensive and
they are NOT an easy way to make money PERIOD!
smeg
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:43 am
Location: melbourne, Australia

Re: CNC porting

Postby dfree383 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

cboggs wrote:
Big Speed wrote:I agree with you Curtis...at $1,500 we're just breaking even to even losing a bit engineering wise on a basic V8 head with nothing fancy. I coun't on some kind of return once the programs are running. We quoted $3,000 on a recent DOHC project. ...every exhaust port different!!! probably still not enough and I think they thought it was too much...because they have'nt bit on it yet :). Try explaining to some that the digitizing equipment alone costs $25,000...they think we're hobbiests and do this for fun. Johnny


Well the more small shops that buy cnc machines, the more people with marginal business skills will
try to compete on price. Good work takes time and time is money, .. simple as that. Charge for quality
and let the "cheap" work go somewhere else.

Funnest thing I ever heard., . "we'll make up for the small profit in volume", .. what that really means is " we'll just make a small profit at a great volume."
Not a very solid business model but a very common one.


If a customer comes in and wants a few hundred sets of heads done..... I'm sure you can absorb the Initial programing cost.... and make a fair profit.
User avatar
dfree383
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 2175
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:01 pm
Location: The Sand Box

Re: CNC porting

Postby raceman14 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:34 am

Not playing favorites but I have experience dealing with Ron Winterhoff at Ron's Porting Service and he will work with you where he will roll the cost of the CPU work into your heads if your purchase a predetermined amount of heads...you make the deal with him on that.

If you are doing one off it wont work for you but if you want your own program for a given head it is well worth it.

He also works a lot with Cast Iron making him a little unique there...

Tell him Mark the Serdi Man sent u...
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
raceman14
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:41 am
Location: GA

Re: CNC porting

Postby brad_m » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:12 am

smeg wrote:
Curtis,
There are more and more small shops setting up these machines in Australia all the time and I have just realized that I am not charging anywhere near enough
For my cnc work.
I think I will do as you say and let them fight it out for the price and let my results speak for themself.
I am very lucky to have some head manufacturers for my customers and they are loyal because I look after them. BUT, these machines are expensive and
they are NOT an easy way to make money PERIOD!


What is a one off worth to digitize? and then what's it worth to machine each head, Assume an alloy inline 6cyl like the Falcon 4L.
I had one guy tell me that all 12 ports would need to be digitized, even though with this head all the ports are the cast the same give or take production toloerence, I thought this was strange as the whole point is to have every port the same every time.
Am I wrong? Do I need to hand port the entire head first? Or can I send a head with one intake and one exhaust done and that can be applied across all the others?
I find it very hard to get this sort if information in this country. It's as if it's top secret or something...
brad_m
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Australia

Re: CNC porting

Postby raceman14 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:42 am

Brad,
As long as all the ports go in the same direction, you could port one, have it digitized and run the program on the head to get the rest done.

I may be way to old school but If it was me I would find an old school head porter pay him the $1000-$1500 it would take to get the head done and be done with it. A good head head porter can usually get individual ports within about 2% on the flow bench and unless you are running a Pro-Stocker that should be close enough.

CNC porting only makes the job easy if you want to do a bunch of the same thing and make the ports close to the same. Core shift can cause variations.

Go out and buy a die grinder and a couple nice 6" Flames and Balls and have at it. Find yourself someone with a flow bench and pay them $50-$100 to flow a couple ports, Hit a couple more ports and take it back, and by the time you finish you will have your ported head with some good numbers to see what you have done. If you want to duplicate it make some card board or poster board, or >040" Alum sheet templates of heights widths and radiuses and keep them so you can re-create your work. How do you think we did it before the big bad CNC came along...

I kinda think most folks are not hand porting and that art will be gone in a generation or two. My son is 8 and I am teaching him how to use his hands in the shop with grinders, welders, etc....too many folks are scared of F'ing something up, hell that is how your learn...How much could a practice head cost you???

If you need porting tools and can't find them I can go to pick you up some grinders and burrs and for about $500 you would be started in your own head porting business...Might cost 100-150 to ship it to Aussie land as I ship Serdi stuff there a couple times a month...

Holla,
Mark the Serdi Man
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
raceman14
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:41 am
Location: GA

Re: CNC porting

Postby brad_m » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:38 am

raceman14 wrote:Brad,
As long as all the ports go in the same direction, you could port one, have it digitized and run the program on the head to get the rest done.

I may be way to old school but If it was me I would find an old school head porter pay him the $1000-$1500 it would take to get the head done and be done with it. A good head head porter can usually get individual ports within about 2% on the flow bench and unless you are running a Pro-Stocker that should be close enough.

CNC porting only makes the job easy if you want to do a bunch of the same thing and make the ports close to the same. Core shift can cause variations.

Go out and buy a die grinder and a couple nice 6" Flames and Balls and have at it. Find yourself someone with a flow bench and pay them $50-$100 to flow a couple ports, Hit a couple more ports and take it back, and by the time you finish you will have your ported head with some good numbers to see what you have done. If you want to duplicate it make some card board or poster board, or >040" Alum sheet templates of heights widths and radiuses and keep them so you can re-create your work. How do you think we did it before the big bad CNC came along...

I kinda think most folks are not hand porting and that art will be gone in a generation or two. My son is 8 and I am teaching him how to use his hands in the shop with grinders, welders, etc....too many folks are scared of F'ing something up, hell that is how your learn...How much could a practice head cost you???

If you need porting tools and can't find them I can go to pick you up some grinders and burrs and for about $500 you would be started in your own head porting business...Might cost 100-150 to ship it to Aussie land as I ship Serdi stuff there a couple times a month...

Holla,
Mark the Serdi Man


I bought a $20 grinder and stone kit from the cheap shop about 12 years ago and did my first iron 4 cyl head.
These days I 'believe' I do a 'reasonable' job on the heads I have an interest in. (There are enough people doing V8 heads already)
I'm in the process building a PTS flow bench and have a 20 foot shipping container behind my shed at home that is going to get set up with the flow bench, a porting table ect. I've found cheap air grinders with decent oil have a decent life span and I've been growing the collection of burrs.
It will be the only flow bench for 100km, even then the next one is over 500km away.

PS, My 3 year old son loves nothing more then to help daddy fix cars or do 'stuff' in the shed.
brad_m
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Australia

Re: CNC porting

Postby smeg » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:50 pm

brad_m wrote:
smeg wrote:
Curtis,
There are more and more small shops setting up these machines in Australia all the time and I have just realized that I am not charging anywhere near enough
For my cnc work.
I think I will do as you say and let them fight it out for the price and let my results speak for themself.
I am very lucky to have some head manufacturers for my customers and they are loyal because I look after them. BUT, these machines are expensive and
they are NOT an easy way to make money PERIOD!


What is a one off worth to digitize? and then what's it worth to machine each head, Assume an alloy inline 6cyl like the Falcon 4L.
I had one guy tell me that all 12 ports would need to be digitized, even though with this head all the ports are the cast the same give or take production toloerence, I thought this was strange as the whole point is to have every port the same every time.
Am I wrong? Do I need to hand port the entire head first? Or can I send a head with one intake and one exhaust done and that can be applied across all the others?
I find it very hard to get this sort if information in this country. It's as if it's top secret or something...


Brad,
I have two programs for these heads. PM me and we can talk.
All the ports for those heads are in the same position so it is pointless to digitize all of them. The main advantage to cnc is all of the ports are all the same,
with no differences. This is something that hand porting can't do as you have no accurate datum points to measure from.
When we cnc a head it is very common that a lot of places in the port will not clean up. Now when you hand port you dont leave those parts alone do you?
Over the years I have seen a lot of head people rubbish cnc porting as its not needed or too expensive, but now I see those same people now promote their work that is all cnc now.
For the prices, grinding and cutting your own heads gets old real fast, especially when you can reproduce your own ports for a reasonable cost.
smeg
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:43 am
Location: melbourne, Australia

Re: CNC porting

Postby kirkwoodken » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:15 pm

For years I worked in production shops that used Bridgeport vertical mills with hydraulic Tru-Trace heads for duplicating all kinds of intricate air craft and NASA parts. Typical setup was three parts, a pattern and a three spindle Bridgeport head. The 3-D stylus was manually pushed around and over the pattern to make three parts. The simplicity of this system of replication is mind boggling. No digitizing necessary, although you go through the digitizing motions for every three parts you make. To make three parts, you need only ONE finished part and you can make three like it out of blocks of anything. Needless to say, to make good parts, you need accurate fixturing. The Tru-Trace head will duplicate withing .0005". We referd to the Stylus as "The Idiot Stick" because it doesn't take a lot of brains to make good parts.

If you are interested in duplicating a FEW ports and you have good patterns to copy and very little money, the three spindle, or even a single spindle, Bridgeport with a tracer head is a very cheap and accurate way to go. Something to consider. In the time it takes to digitize, you can have three heads done. If you only wanted two, you have a spare.
"Life is too short to not run a solid roller cam."
"Anything is possible, if you don't know what you're talking about."
I am NOT an Expert, and DEFINITELY NOT a GURU.
Kirkwoodken
kirkwoodken
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:35 pm

Next

Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 2ksteeda, 900HP, bigjoe1, Bing [Bot], Chipped tooth, cj391, Dragsinger, Google [Bot], JJ1015, Nefario, Pontiac_Puller, wallbrett, wyrmrider, Yahoo [Bot] and 31 guests