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Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby twl » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:28 pm

groberts101 wrote:
twl wrote:We have used Swain Tech skirt coatings which do this. They may not be identical to the OP product, but do basically the same thing from another supplier. Been using it for several years.
We have found good results from this sort of coating in some of our applications.



yeah.. have seen them too, plus they're cheaper. I have to wonder what the composition of that coating is though? Plastic frits like line2line's or ceramic based? They did say their PT-9 or PC-9, not sure which, coatings are not meant to be built up as thick due to potential for coating failures when reaching excessive thicknesses. just under .001 was standard application and max around .002 was the next option up for a few bucks more.

Could you share any firsthand experiences with teardown/parts inspection? While I can imagine they get high spotted away just like any other skirt coating would.. any slight issues with coating delamination or the tiniest bit of oil system debri?

Have wondered for quite some time if these guys>> https://www.oerlikon.com/metco/en/produ ... sumebore/.. have a hand in the various coatings technology being formulated/applied these days. They have the material database to make nearly anything and work with major aeronautics, OEM's and race teams. Yamaha.. Rotax.. Borg Warner and probably many others.

forgot to add that they do that sumebore on loose liners too. Not stoked to ask about the pricing though. Looks like REALLY expensive equipment. lol

Worldwide based company.. might be able to help some of you guys over on the giant island too. :-D


We have used it mostly on pistons that were a bit loose in the bore, to bring proper clearance. We have used up to .003" coating thickness on the skirt.
It doesn't last forever. In our aircooled motorcycle application with forged piston, it has needed reapplication after about 10k miles. However, ours is a fairly hard use application with very wide swings in thermal expansions of the parts in question, and in excess of what would be seen on water cooled auto engines.
I don't have pics, but it does solve some issues without causing new piston purchase, at least for a reasonable amount of mileage, and it is not very expensive.
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby groberts101 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:11 pm

Thanks for that reply. I've used 3 other skirt coatings so far and I'm leaning towards Line2line coating. Mainly because it seems different than the others.. plastic good or bad.. and allows higher restoration thickness. Plus it's only a few k mule motor to get me by for the time being. Long rod 302, KB 327 Chevy claimer pistons cut for Ford valve pockets. Coated skirts and TBC crowns. Hopefully it lives in the stock block cause I'm a gonna spin it like I don;t care! [-o<
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby Jeff Lee » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:34 pm

There are no similarities between Line2Line coating and Swain or Techline. Completely different process and usage.
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby groberts101 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:56 pm

Jeff Lee wrote:There are no similarities between Line2Line coating and Swain or Techline. Completely different process and usage.


With Techline, no doubt.. I use their stuff almost exclusively. Wish they would come up with something similar.. I'd try it.

OTOH, Swain does mention using same task "tolerance reduction" coatings. Talked to them again today.. confirmed their coating thicknesses in comparison with line2line. Or maybe the salesguy's are trying to reel me back to take my money like the old days? Holy hell can you dump cash too quickly into a motor when it comes to coating almost everything possible. All this shit seems to work so far..hope to have good results with the Line2line stuff too.
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby MadBill » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:47 pm

groberts101 wrote:
Jeff Lee wrote:There are no similarities between Line2Line coating and Swain or Techline. Completely different process and usage.


With Techline, no doubt.. I use their stuff almost exclusively. Wish they would come up with something similar.. I'd try it.

OTOH, Swain does mention using same task "tolerance reduction" coatings. Talked to them again today.. confirmed their coating thicknesses in comparison with line2line. Or maybe the salesguy's are trying to reel me back to take my money like the old days? Holy hell can you dump cash too quickly into a motor when it comes to coating almost everything possible. All this shit seems to work so far..hope to have good results with the Line2line stuff too.


If that means Swain is claiming the ability to coat as thickly as L2L, not true, according to their respective websites. Swain says they can add "..up to 0.004" diameter, i.e. 0.002" per surface. L2L says "Thickness 0.0007" - 0.020"+ (18µ-500µ+)"
I had my BBC pistons done recently, adding ~ 0.007" per side, leaving them with ~ 0.001" initial clearance, as per L2L's recommendation. The engine wont run until spring, but I expect far less 'clippety-clop' piston sounds..
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby groberts101 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:45 pm

MadBill wrote:
groberts101 wrote:
Jeff Lee wrote:There are no similarities between Line2Line coating and Swain or Techline. Completely different process and usage.


With Techline, no doubt.. I use their stuff almost exclusively. Wish they would come up with something similar.. I'd try it.

OTOH, Swain does mention using same task "tolerance reduction" coatings. Talked to them again today.. confirmed their coating thicknesses in comparison with line2line. Or maybe the salesguy's are trying to reel me back to take my money like the old days? Holy hell can you dump cash too quickly into a motor when it comes to coating almost everything possible. All this shit seems to work so far..hope to have good results with the Line2line stuff too.


If that means Swain is claiming the ability to coat as thickly as L2L, not true, according to their respective websites. Swain says they can add "..up to 0.004" diameter, i.e. 0.002" per surface. L2L says "Thickness 0.0007" - 0.020"+ (18µ-500µ+)"
I had my BBC pistons done recently, adding ~ 0.007" per side, leaving them with ~ 0.001" initial clearance, as per L2L's recommendation. The engine wont run until spring, but I expect far less 'clippety-clop' piston sounds..


I talk a lot Bill.. might have missed this from my earlier post above but I should have been more clear. Maybe said.. "maximum coating application thickness". So, yeah.. .004" total tolerance reduction.

I have to wonder what the composition of that coating is though? Plastic frits like line2line's or ceramic based? They did say their PT-9 or PC-9, not sure which, coatings are not meant to be built up as thick due to potential for coating failures when reaching excessive thicknesses. Just under .001" was standard application and max coating application thickness of around .002" was the next option up for a few bucks more.


I decided to give line2line a shot on this lower budget motor for now. That way I can thoroughly test it out before committing it to my aluminum big bore block. Might even help stabilize these old school TS gapless 2nd rings with their chubby 5/64" ring packs at 7,000+ rpm. Skirts on the 327 Chebby claimer pistons are pretty short too.
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby Jeff Lee » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:33 am

Swain, techline, etc., yes they can build up a skirt but it’s not the same concept. Line2Line - think of it like a spray on bedliner with peaks and valleys. It’s not smooth like Techline or Swain. Basically, once the “clearancing” is complete. the peaks are worn smooth and the piston skirt is now conformed to the cylinder wall. Oil is retained in the valleys and there is little to none wear. The oil in the valleys stabilize the wear on the skirt coating.
I’m no expert on this because of experience...this is me just reciting the sales pitch but I studied this the best I could before pulling the trigger and I had exceptional talent in Keith @ Total Seal and Diamond pistons pushing me towards this application on my Diamond pistons which only had about 30 runs on them. As a result of a F’d up machine shop I lost all bearings and cylinder bores were no longer round (were they ever?). Bottom line is I had nearly new Diamond ($$) pistons that once the bores were cleaned up, I had .008” - .009” piston clearance. First words out of the sales rep at Diamond was “ever hear about Line2Line” I said, “yea, Keith @ TS said the same thing”. I said “is there an option B?” He said “yea, new pistons”. He said same thing Keith said, probably get more HP with the Line2Line. He could have easily sold me a new set of pistons. Then last conversation was my aircraft mechanic buddy. So here I am with Line2Line skirts waiting for one last machining operation and I can assemble.
One last thing. I have run Techline for years on numerous AMC Stock & SuperStock engine builds. It’s great stuff. Used it on cranks, rods, pistons, valves, intakes. But it’s not the same as this.
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby groberts101 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:20 am

Jeff Lee wrote:Swain, techline, etc., yes they can build up a skirt but it’s not the same concept. Line2Line - think of it like a spray on bedliner with peaks and valleys. It’s not smooth like Techline or Swain. Basically, once the “clearancing” is complete. the peaks are worn smooth and the piston skirt is now conformed to the cylinder wall. Oil is retained in the valleys and there is little to none wear. The oil in the valleys stabilize the wear on the skirt coating.
I’m no expert on this because of experience...this is me just reciting the sales pitch but I studied this the best I could before pulling the trigger and I had exceptional talent in Keith @ Total Seal and Diamond pistons pushing me towards this application on my Diamond pistons which only had about 30 runs on them. As a result of a F’d up machine shop I lost all bearings and cylinder bores were no longer round (were they ever?). Bottom line is I had nearly new Diamond ($$) pistons that once the bores were cleaned up, I had .008” - .009” piston clearance. First words out of the sales rep at Diamond was “ever hear about Line2Line” I said, “yea, Keith @ TS said the same thing”. I said “is there an option B?” He said “yea, new pistons”. He said same thing Keith said, probably get more HP with the Line2Line. He could have easily sold me a new set of pistons. Then last conversation was my aircraft mechanic buddy. So here I am with Line2Line skirts waiting for one last machining operation and I can assemble.
One last thing. I have run Techline for years on numerous AMC Stock & SuperStock engine builds. It’s great stuff. Used it on cranks, rods, pistons, valves, intakes. But it’s not the same as this.


Thanks for the feedback, Jeff. Kinda the same thing I gathered too.

And yeah.. I deal with the same thing at my local machine shops too. All I can tell you for sure is if you do enough of this kinda stuff it's really cheap insurance in the long run to invest in the measuring tools needed to keep all those guys honest. Still sucks when they pooch your machine work. Like bad crank and have to cut away another .010" just to fix their crappy work. Nicest thing about living in big metro area's is it can take years till you get screwed by most shops and finally find the good ones. Plus, I'm still training myself to not be so cheap.. might be part of the complications too. :lol:
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby Geechee » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:35 pm

Just wanted to let anyone interested in the Abradable Powder Coating process for piston skirts know that I am up and running near Spartanburg, SC to cover the South East Region. Feel free to call me with questions or concerns at 864-473-0637 or email me at brianneal@Line2linecoatings.com! Thank Ya'll for your time! =D>
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby clshore » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:12 pm

Geechee, cool handle for SC
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby Jeff Lee » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:06 am

groberts101 wrote:
Jeff Lee wrote:Swain, techline, etc., yes they can build up a skirt but it’s not the same concept. Line2Line - think of it like a spray on bedliner with peaks and valleys. It’s not smooth like Techline or Swain. Basically, once the “clearancing” is complete. the peaks are worn smooth and the piston skirt is now conformed to the cylinder wall. Oil is retained in the valleys and there is little to none wear. The oil in the valleys stabilize the wear on the skirt coating.
I’m no expert on this because of experience...this is me just reciting the sales pitch but I studied this the best I could before pulling the trigger and I had exceptional talent in Keith @ Total Seal and Diamond pistons pushing me towards this application on my Diamond pistons which only had about 30 runs on them. As a result of a F’d up machine shop I lost all bearings and cylinder bores were no longer round (were they ever?). Bottom line is I had nearly new Diamond ($$) pistons that once the bores were cleaned up, I had .008” - .009” piston clearance. First words out of the sales rep at Diamond was “ever hear about Line2Line” I said, “yea, Keith @ TS said the same thing”. I said “is there an option B?” He said “yea, new pistons”. He said same thing Keith said, probably get more HP with the Line2Line. He could have easily sold me a new set of pistons. Then last conversation was my aircraft mechanic buddy. So here I am with Line2Line skirts waiting for one last machining operation and I can assemble.
One last thing. I have run Techline for years on numerous AMC Stock & SuperStock engine builds. It’s great stuff. Used it on cranks, rods, pistons, valves, intakes. But it’s not the same as this.


Thanks for the feedback, Jeff. Kinda the same thing I gathered too.

And yeah.. I deal with the same thing at my local machine shops too. All I can tell you for sure is if you do enough of this kinda stuff it's really cheap insurance in the long run to invest in the measuring tools needed to keep all those guys honest. Still sucks when they pooch your machine work. Like bad crank and have to cut away another .010" just to fix their crappy work. Nicest thing about living in big metro area's is it can take years till you get screwed by most shops and finally find the good ones. Plus, I'm still training myself to not be so cheap.. might be part of the complications too. :lol:


Never been called cheap...and they built the engine so they own the problems. Like .0125 clearance between ATI Dampner and crank snout / post! Unfortunately (fortunately?), I refuse to go back to the shop despite years of success there. I found a shop out of my metro are (Phoenix, AZ) and travel to Los Angela's area now! All I know is the work was done ON TIME and ON BUDGET. That’s a first in both categories for me! Now I’m back to putting my own engines back together. Guess before I was getting fat and lazy.
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby Geechee » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:46 am

Geechee is my prized rescue dog! I had an uncle in Georgia nicknamed after the Geechee river and thought it was a cool name for him! Thanks again for your time!
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby groberts101 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:56 am

Geechee wrote:Just wanted to let anyone interested in the Abradable Powder Coating process for piston skirts know that I am up and running near Spartanburg, SC to cover the South East Region. Feel free to call me with questions or concerns at 864-473-0637 or email me at brianneal@Line2linecoatings.com! Thank Ya'll for your time! =D>


Nice to have you here, Geechee.

Do you have the tech info to elaborate on what some of the fastest piston speeds this coating has been subjected to in testing.. or real parts combinations?

I can imagine that some of the smaller 2-stroke stuff must be getting pretty fast fps.

Thanks for your time. :)
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby HDBD » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:12 am

A local shop I deal with tried the product on a late model high compression Harley and ended up with 1.5% leakdown with CP pistons, Nipon rings, and a 400 30° hone finish. Hard temperature controlled break-in
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Re: Abradable Powder Coating- Piston Skirts

Postby Geechee » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:57 am

One great feature of our product here at Line2line Coatings is our ability to safely add up to .015 diametric build to the piston skirt. Many brand new pistons have been "sized" to cover machine shop accidents or mistakes and even wrong information given when ordering the pistons! Several manufacturers including Diamond and Total Seal have referred customers to us saving them the added expense of over sized parts.
A question I deal with on a regular basis concerns the tighter clearances that we tell our customers to set piston to wall. "There's no way that motor will survive that tight" has been repeated so many times to me that I now expect it...Lol! The very nature of the Abradable Powder Coating allows the tighter tolerances because if the piston expands more than expected due to a tuning or failure issue the coating will simple burnish away and the original metal to metal clearance is still there! I personally race a Big Block Chevy 706 with three stages of Nitrous and the piston to wall is .0035!
Thank you in advance for anyone that takes the time to read this and hope to meet many of you in the near future! Brian Neal
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