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IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

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IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby bderry » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:50 pm

IM BUILDING A 350 SBC STD 9:1 COMPRESSION WITH 487 HEADS. IVE GOT SOME ROCHESTER TWO BARRELS INTAKES THAT HAVE BEEN ACID WASHED AND PORTED. i also have a aluminuim factory two barrel intake i found that is in great shape. now i have to decide wiether to go with the two barrels worth 500 or go with the edelbrock 2702 with the adapter plate on it. i knw theirs alot of guys running imca so starting talking. oh and by the way ive got one of the best cams from a very smart person(mike jones). im going to be running 3/8 mile dirt the boone speedway hoping to go for the 6 foot trophy at supper nationlas.im ready to talk to who ever to kick some crates ass. thecrates finish top 5 just about every sat night here. geting very old the same peron winning weekend after weekend even the memorial specail he walkd away with it. im gready to get to work with all ideas.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby raceman14 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:01 am

If you win, won't they toss you out on acid ported intake manifold???

Why don't you go the extra step and find out what the manifolds actually flow so you can determine fr yourself what is better. I am sure there is a good head porter with a flow bench in your area if not it only costs about $25 to ship a manifold anywhere in the country maybe $50 if it is far.

I flow 3-4-5 manifolds a month, sometimes more sometimes less. I charge $100 to flow all 8 ports. When you have a manifold restriction it is critical to get the best head flow you can. Do you know where you are there? I have recently flowed some EQ heads and have a valve job profile that kicks the flow up on them pretty good.

In my opinion you are wasting your time with those old cast pieces, they weigh a ton and unless you had someone really good work on them they won't be much better than stock most acid porters don't take material out in the places where it needs to be removed and I have flowed many a $1000 cast iron manifold that was worse than a stock one. Airflow does not always like more volume as it can kill the port velocity.

What is the penalty to running the 2701???

I have been selling a bunch of 602 parts to the mid-west since the first of the year. I know I have some 602 crates here in the SE that can hang with stock 604's so they would definitely blister IMCA built engines.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby barnym17 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:24 am

Are you sure the engine is why they are fast? 2 more mph in the corner translates to a lot faster laptime?
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby governor » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:15 am

barnym17 wrote:Are you sure the engine is why they are fast? 2 more mph in the corner translates to a lot faster laptime?


You hit the nail on the head, had my share of motors claimed (12) when I used to run IMCA and NEVER did a guy claim one of my motors and beat me with it.

Speed is in the setup.

Gov
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby bderry » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:16 am

I CAN ONLY RUN THE EDELBROCK 2701 WITH ADAPTER PLATE OR CALLED THE RESTRICTOR PLATE WITH THE ROCHESTER 500 ON IT. MANIFOLDS ARE MY NEXT THING IN LINE.AND SETUP WATS THE BEST SETUP TO HAVE IN A CAR FOR DIRT OR ANAVERGE SETUP THAT WILL KICK ASS. THEY ARE RUNNING 623 TO 650 IN THE CRATES AND US GUYS WITH CLAIMERS IS RUNNING 666 TO 700. SO I HOPE JONES CAM KICKS SOME ASS WITH A 650 GEAR.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby ZIGGY » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:11 am

I admire your ambition but it sounds like you need to focus on chassis and getting some experience.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby barnym17 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:35 am

Altho it sounds counter productive a taller gear may well help, you are most likely well out of the power band for the engine and likely running at an rpm that is just converting fuel to noise instead of power. A 2bbl just will not make high rpm power like a 4bbl it simply can't get enough air to make power up top. With your rules esp. compression you are setup to fail against the crates a 2bbl needs squeeze to make power.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby raceman14 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:38 am

Barney,
I am with you on the gear but the crate has to run a 4412 and 6200rpm limiter also. It does make a ton of bottom end torque, even better than a 604 in most cases.

I guess we will just have to let time work things out. I have posted on things that make big power and will do so again to refresh the thought process.
#1 Power gain - Matching your carb and distributor to the burn rate of your fuel.
#2 Matching the burn of your fuel to the accleration rate of your engine.
#3 Use timing advance curve and retard to gain power once you have optimized your fuel burn.
#4 Eliminate valvetrain harmonics to allow the cam to do its job all the way to 6200, this is usually more important on crates as they have a lot of problems above 5000rpms.
#5 Work to maintian high oil pressure in both engines as they are hydraulic lifters and they are usually one of the weak links in the system.

Even though there are 20+ more areas to work on I'll stop here so it does not turn into a novel.

One thing I am sure most 305 builders are missing is how to make the best out of an engine that has a big advantage to making power all the way up and past 6200. Not too sure many IMCA folks have run on chassis dyno's but if you do, see what happens when you run up to and passed the rev-limiter.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby bderry » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:10 pm

THE CRATES HEAR HAVE TO RUN THE ROCHESTER TWO BARREL AS WELL AS THE CLAIM MOTORS. JUST THAT THE CRATES HAVE THE 6200 REV LIMIT AND WE ARE OPEM RPM. SO THATS WHY I THINK THEIR IS AWAY TO BEAT THESE CRATES AND ONE WAY OR ANOTHER IM GOING TO GET SOMETHING IGURED OUT TO KICK THEIR ASS. NW ON HALF MILE US CLAIM MOTORS CAN STAY RITE WITH THEM AND SOMETIMES KICK THEIR ASS. WE DID LAST NITE IN ARE OLD CAR WAS RUNNING THIRD AND WAS CATCHING THE LEADERS AND I HAD SO MUCH BITE ON THE RITE REAR WE WORE THE RIGHT REAR TIRE OFF IS WAS A BRAND NEW TIRE. THE TIRE WASNT EVEN REALLY HOT AT ALL. WE HAD A 543 FOR GEAR IN.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby autogear » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:23 pm

KILL the caps please
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby raceman14 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:39 pm

If the deal is open 2bbl rochester there are a number of big carbs out there, like I said it relates to how much flow you can get thru the intake or spacer plate or whatever to the heads.

If you have no rev limit, there should be no problem outrunning 602 crates.

IMPORTANT Questions ;
Is there a rule on the throttle blade size on the carb?
What is the hole size in the restrictor plate for the 2701 manifold?
Is the camshaft open rules?
What about valve springs?

Better yet do you have an online link to the rules you can post?
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby Brian B » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:12 pm

governor wrote:
barnym17 wrote:Are you sure the engine is why they are fast? 2 more mph in the corner translates to a lot faster laptime?


You hit the nail on the head, had my share of motors claimed (12) when I used to run IMCA and NEVER did a guy claim one of my motors and beat me with it.

Speed is in the setup.

Gov


Top 3 to go fast in dirt track racing....
3rd......motor
2nd.....driver
[b]1st....car that will go around the corner..

I would lose sales on motors when racer would come in and say "I want a motor just like xxx"
I would ask can you hold it to the floor all the way around? they would say no...I would tell them to
go work on the car...

got all kinds of storys on this..
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby MidgetMotorsports07 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:18 pm

There are already opens beating the crates in Hobby stock. When they gave you the intake and the bigger exhaust pipes you should be fairly even. Work on the car... that's where most of the problem is.

You don't need the acid ported intake or stuff like that. I'm not saying it won't help, just not necessary. The crates aren't making any more power than the opens are with the new rules.
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby Brian B » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:34 pm

raceman14 wrote:If you win, won't they toss you out on acid ported intake manifold???

Why don't you go the extra step and find out what the manifolds actually flow so you can determine fr yourself what is better. I am sure there is a good head porter with a flow bench in your area if not it only costs about $25 to ship a manifold anywhere in the country maybe $50 if it is far.

I flow 3-4-5 manifolds a month, sometimes more sometimes less. I charge $100 to flow all 8 ports. When you have a manifold restriction it is critical to get the best head flow you can. Do you know where you are there? I have recently flowed some EQ heads and have a valve job profile that kicks the flow up on them pretty good.In my opinion you are wasting your time with those old cast pieces, they weigh a ton and unless you had someone really good work on them they won't be much better than stock most acid porters don't take material out in the places where it needs to be removed and I have flowed many a $1000 cast iron manifold that was worse than a stock one. Airflow does not always like more volume as it can kill the port velocity.

What is the penalty to running the 2701???

I have been selling a bunch of 602 parts to the mid-west since the first of the year. I know I have some 602 crates here in the SE that can hang with stock 604's so they would definitely blister IMCA built engines.
.

Raceman
How much flow did you pu on the EQ head?
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The Ferrea Valve Guy
Stocking HYLOMAR
Ask about our Fast Setting Silicone..its fast
Now in stock
5/16 hollow stems
5/16 6000 series SBC
877 235 2832
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Re: IMCA HOBBY MOTOR VERSE CRATE!!!! I HATE CRATES PERIOD!!!

Postby raceman14 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:15 pm

I flow my stuff different than anbody else so the numbers would not equate that great on the whole, I used the intake and carb to get my numbers. My flow bench numbers are more reflective of what the heads will flow on the engine. On almost everything I test I try and use the intake and carb and spacer that will be used, like the average IMCA head numbers was about 167cfm. I had a couple runners higher and a couple lower. Without taking a grinder to the stuff to equalize there is not much you can do.

A decent valve job picks up 7-10cfm @ 25". I also do not get as big of a number as they do on their head but that is pretty common.

You can also flow 10 different castings of the same part number and you will find some better and worse than the rest. I have found as much as 3-4 cfm in each runner and total of 25-30cfm per manifold.

You will also find big differences in manifolds when you change lift numbers, even if the head does not flow much more at higher lifts, you might find the intake helps the head keep flowing on up the lift curve. I guess the extension of the runner helps the air stay laminar or together longer before it starts making noise / breaking up. Kinda like the flow tubes on the exhaust help get the numbers up if they are shaped right.

Just some of the stuff you find if you look for it.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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