Considering starting shop What machines to start with??

[mikes]

TMSjoe. Never used a bar , didnt know you could do that, glad you mentioned it! Cedermachine, If I myself were employed in a machine shop earning a good wage and had the machines at my disposal, I wouldnt look to start my own. The only reason Id consider that if I were an employee of a machine shop, is if the boss/owner didnt have the same level of customer service and quality that I want to give. I would talk with him and ask to raise the bar some but if he had no interest in setting higher standards or goals to improve, I'm out. I agree with what your saying 100 percent though. I dont work in that industry now because of the low salary but do miss it greatly and thats why I want to get back into it. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, there's a lack of quality shops around here for performance work.

[jed]

Mike, Mike, Mike, If you are who you say you are then you are what this industry needs.
Go for it.
(1)Keep the expensed down. Move in with the restoration guy. Have him cut you a deal on rent.
(2)Make sure there is 220 3 phase. Most of the equipment is 3 phase. If not you can use a phase converter.
I ran my present business out of my garage for about 4 years on phase converters.
(3)Buy used equipment. You need axcess to a truck and trailer to go and pjick up what you will buy.
(4) There is a Sunnen CHV31 heer in Dallas . It is a manual cylinder hone and a line hone all in one.
Look it up on the interner. It is capable of doing performane work . This one is well equiped and has 2 popilar size mandrels.
Cost is $6500. There is a petterson boring bar bores from 2.6 to 5.5. I think it has a stand with it. $2500.
That will put in the block business. I know ther will be a lot of negitive talk about the machine BUT YOU HAVE A BUDGET TO GET STARTED.
aFTER A COUPLE OF YEARS BUY A CV616.
what do you think????

[Bucky]

I'm not in the business, but have been in business for myself. One thing to consider is getting into a niche, and starting a relationship with one or more of the existing machine shops offering the services to them that they don't do in house. As long as you can manage to avoid stepping on their toes, those relationships can be pretty good, and can help you build your business basically on having just a couple customers. When you are ready to do more, make it clear to those machine shops what your intentions are before hand. Handle it with integrity, and you can get started without having to be able to do it all. Of course you can lean on those other shops for the services you don't offer as well.

[Noob]

You either need to figure out if you plan to offer a service or sell a product.

Like if you want to do SBC cylinder heads. Then just do them and have inventory and sell them exchange. You'll know casting #'s, what sells, what doesn't and what the prices of the parts are.



If you sell a service then what ends up happening is some idiot brings you *random head* and only wants x and y done to it. The problem is the tooling to do x and y is $150 and only works on cylinder heads with guides that are .239" in ID. The idea is that on the next job "you'll make money". and you might.. or might not.. be prepared to buy a lot of one time use tooling in the service industry. A lot of time wasters there as well.

[Cedarmachine]

TMSjoe. Never used a bar , didnt know you could do that, glad you mentioned it! Cedermachine, If I myself were employed in a machine shop earning a good wage and had the machines at my disposal, I wouldnt look to start my own. The only reason Id consider that if I were an employee of a machine shop, is if the boss/owner didnt have the same level of customer service and quality that I want to give. I would talk with him and ask to raise the bar some but if he had no interest in setting higher standards or goals to improve, I'm out. I agree with what your saying 100 percent though. I dont work in that industry now because of the low salary but do miss it greatly and thats why I want to get back into it. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, there's a lack of quality shops around here for performance work.

I worked in a shop that would not buy the equipment that I felt we should have. I brought a lot of my own customers to that job, but could not do the work I wanted with what they had. I was paid hourly! and not much at that. The management was a dog and pony show as well. It was frustrating.
I quit and started working for another guy. We had a great arrangement. I had, at that point, a pretty solid personal following. I worked on his customers jobs on an hourly rate and then when the shop work was done, I worked on my own customers work on a commission basis. Many, if not most weeks, I would write him a check at the end of the week. From the beginning, I told him I wanted to open my own shop, and possibly even buy his out at some point.
At first, he was a little put off, thinking he was taking advantage of me. After all, I really busted my ass to get the shop work done so I could get on with my commission work, which, of course, paid better. I showed him, that even after paying him for shop time, which ate up my hourly wages, that I still had billed out a nice wage for the week. My hourly, after paying the shop time, including the time I worked on his clock, was four times what he paid me per hour. I also made a percentage on parts for my customers too.

Well, as luck would have it, he lost his lease and did not want to move and start over. We made a deal and I bought all his equipment. That was in 1989. It took 5 years and a lot of work to pay him off, but since then I have quadrupled the amount of equipment I have and owned a couple buildings. Now I'm looking for that same guy to take over my business. I'd rather go back and work on a commission basis when I have a project, and retire. I imagine there is more that one guy like me out there, ready to move on too. This is a good way to jump on a ball that's already rolling. Having taken over another shop really got me headed in the right direction.

[Cedarmachine]

I should clarify...When I say "that same guy" to take over my business, I mean it metaphorically, a guy like I was at the time. Right now there are a lot of shops with owners retiring..it would be a good place to start is my point. I know of one owner that is ready to retire, but because of "family politics" he is stuck. Now an outside buyer would probably free him from it..

Look into options, it would be nice to get into something that is standing and running. That expense alone is costly. It probably cost me 20K every time I moved between wiring, permits, build out etc. that was doing much of it ourselves.

[TMSJoe]

I really busted my ass to get the shop work done so I could get on with my commission work

Now I'm looking for that same guy to take over my business.

I'm afraid that model is obsolete. I remember it well. Hard Working American version 1.0.

It has been replaced with Entitled American beta v10.1

[Cedarmachine]

I really busted my ass to get the shop work done so I could get on with my commission work

Now I'm looking for that same guy to take over my business.

I'm afraid that model is obsolete. I remember it well. Hard Working American version 1.0.

It has been replaced with Entitled American beta v10.1

Ha! No kidding!
I tried to get a neighbor kid to do some cleaning and such in the shop...I asked him what he figured he was worth an hour (he's 12) he said, I dunno, ten or twelve bucks...his first job is gonna be a shocker.. He still hasn't shown up anyway.

I think most people in the younger generation aren't willing to make the sacrifices that we made years ago.( Im guessing the guys one here are probably more driven than most though). I drove a AMC Spirit that ran on 5 cylinders, lived in a crappy house and ate like a pauper for years. When all my buddys were buying new pickup trucks in their 20's, I was buying a line-honing machine, crank balancer or some other machine. I spend every nickel I could on my building or tooling. I didn't take a vacation for 15 years...I just don't now if the "instant gratification" generation has it in them to do that or if the economy will even support it anyway. I like to think it will, but who knows.

[Dave Koehler]

The idea is that on the next job "you'll make money". and you might.. or might not.. be prepared to buy a lot of one time use tooling in the service industry. A lot of time wasters there as well.

True that.
It is expensive and non profitable trying to be all things to all people. Been there. It didn't used to be this way but times change and the engine types have gotten more varied.
Your only recourse is, let's say you specialize in American stuff and someone has a 6 cyl Jag to work on. This is good work if you are tooled up for it but this is a different animal in many ways.
There is no one else in the area with the proper tooling or don't want to do it. What do you do? Do you price it like a 6 cyl chevy? Oh hell no.

This valve job, cleaning, guides, lash adjustment, etc does take considerable more time so the pricing needs to reflect that. If your base valve job on cast iron 6 is 100.00 (just a number, don't call me) then this one should be 200 or something that make sense to cover the time and at least 75% the new tooling (if you subscribe to the "next one" theory).

I guarantee you that automotive guys are the only industry that take the "it will make money on the next one" attitude. But it never does and you won't find a conventional machine job shop or industry willing to do one offs based on this attitude. They make money. What do you want to do?

Sometimes you just have to say no.

[MotionMachine]

Dave, funny that you mention Jags, I happen to be doing one this morning. It's probably a very good example of what a lot of shops would turn down. I do lots of them and have for years. They are one of my favorites because rarely is the price a factor. Other than making an indicator to measure the valve tip height, no special tools required, just takes a little experience. On average a valve job with valve adjust is $1,000, more if it needs all the seats. I have found that it's a great niche, antique English. I have several customers who are British only and they just send it and say fix it. Harley work is the same, although it takes a bit more to tool up and a bit more experience on some of the very old models. But again, price not an issue. If only that were the case with all of it we'd be a much happier bunch of grumps...

[Dave Koehler]

I think you made my point on how to make money if you do choose to be all things to all people. Not everything is as easy, cheap or quick to do as a SBC and it should be priced accordingly.
I like the Jags and grudgingly even the *&%#+ Fiats.
With the University here I had to deal with them long before aluminum became the norm in American heads.
Chasing pin holes in a Fiat head is an experience no one should have.
Harley owners are good people to work for when it comes to their bike, even the rough ones.
Old OHC Mercedes might be the most time consuming, therefore expensive to deal with due to all the stuff on top of the head.

[Cedarmachine]

I deal with a bunch of Harley shops down in the city. It's a great niche' market. Between valve jobs, guide work, porting/flow testing, boring/honing, crankshaft and complete engine rebuilding, it can be a business in itself. I have a lot of weeks where the only thing I do is Harley top ends and machining. I have never advertised this service (or any other) out of sheer fear of not being able to keep up with anything else. I do mostly dealer work, but because shipping is so reasonable, I end up doing retail work for people from St. Paul Mn to Key West. It's all word of mouth. The tooling cost is reasonable and what you don't have you can usually make. I have made most of my torque plates and some fixtures. Doing marine and two stroke machine work is a nice market too. Again, there is some specialty tooling, but it's good work.

It's a lot eaiser to be fully equipped for Harley and small engine work and ramp up to automotive work that is is to start out in automotive and ramp up to Harley stuff. The profit margins on motorcycle/marine/snowmobile/watercraft stuff is higher that what automotive has become as well. Setting up a WD account with a major HD head parts manufacturer cost me $2500.00 and I got a lot more parts than I would if I did the same with automotive plus the margin is a lot higher.


Talk about "make it back in the next one" theory...I just spent $900 on tooling for 6.0 Navistar diesel tooling for a $1200.00 valve/guide/o-ring and surface job. After three sets, I now feel like I'm in the money on these things. Like most engines, they will go away in a certain number of years too though, so you gotta weigh cost of toolin VS. the life span of the job.

[mikes]

Some very good points here guys. Thank you very much for taking the time to chime in. I think Im looking to start small like Jed mentioned, as the restoration shop deals with guys that have american performance in mind. I also have a call into a small local shop, he might want out is the rumor I've heard. He does performance as well as some niche work too and stays busy. Either way Its going to start a night/part time deal until it grows to support my household.

[Cedarmachine]

Another thing worth mentioning is, if you can find a shop where you can lease some "machine time" it can be a good think until you can afford that piece of equipment. I have several guys who own shops that come up here and do specific jobs that they are not yet equipped to do, but know how to do. Things like crankshaft balancing, align boring/honing, connecting rod reconditioning, etc. require expensive machines and until you do enough to justify the expense, you can still offer the service and work toward further purchases. I have guys who come here and do the work on a 50/50 split. They make a good wage and I get some return on my machine too. It's a win-win. You just need to have a real good working relationship with the guy and respect his equipment. My deal is; it wears out...I fix it, you break it, you fix it. Regardless, everything gets done to the standard to which my shop adheres to. In other words, no doing sketchy patch work..it gets done right.

I have had employees in the past who have worked for me on a similar plan as I had 20+ years ago with the guy I bought out. Sometimes it works out, and then I've had guys who just didn't hold as high a standard as I did, so it didn't work out.

[la360]

I am in a similar boat as mike the original poster, difference being I am looking at starting something up with a friend. My background is in CNC machining, but will be looking to Automotive machining to diversify my business. My friend's background is in engine building and automotive machining. We'd be looking at buying head based equipment first, then as business improves a cylinder hone, and a dyno later on. I would also like to purchase a CNC mill and lathe further down the track to continue manufacturing my own line of products. I currently work in technical education, which coupled with the downward trend in manufacturing is seeing I have less and less work opportunities. For myself, I am looking at starting out as a silent partner or to work part time. My friend has an established client base that he would then bring with him. If funds permit I think the easiest way would be to buy an existing shop, but failing that we might both work at it part time and source equipment as funds permit. I do agree that building a relationship with other machine shops for the work you can't do is very, very important.
Having a plan and a target/goal for your business is also paramount.