Crank wiper & windage tray?

[mdross1]

Just had a friend tell me if I did not use the oil control crank wiper and windage tray would be giving up near 25 hp, what do you guys think!

[rfoll]

This stuff can be application dependent, but windage issues can easily eat 25 hp. That doesn't mean you will have a problem.

[SupStk]

Years ago i read an article where Bill Jenkins stated there is 60HP wasted in the pan of most engines. Since then I've played with many different pans, scrapers and windage trays. I still haven't found that 60 HP. However i feel the best solution is not to let extra oil run into the rotating assembly and any that gets there a scraper works to some extent. I haven't seen positive proof that the efforts i made with dirrectional baffles and windage trays make much difference. Bigger pans seem to be a good step..... Just my 2 cents.

[Kevin Johnson]

Years ago i read an article where Bill Jenkins stated there is 60HP wasted in the pan of most engines. Since then I've played with many different pans, scrapers and windage trays. I still haven't found that 60 HP. However i feel the best solution is not to let extra oil run into the rotating assembly and any that gets there a scraper works to some extent. I haven't seen positive proof that the efforts i made with dirrectional baffles and windage trays make much difference. Bigger pans seem to be a good step..... Just my 2 cents.

Mercedes, for one, has done the testing. On one of their straight six diesels there are five scrapers arrayed across the floor (straight fives as well). Maybe Bill was talking about an engine in motion and under acceleration (and perhaps pumping losses as well). Try tilting the dyno 45 or 60 degrees back and see how much power is parasitically consumed by an engine running at 5000 rpm while churning the oil. Good chance you'll blow your engine, though.

[mdross1]

My thoughts would be maybe at WOT would you ever see windage problems with oil sloshing up into crank pulling hp away.So maybe it is not such a big deal.

[swatson454]

Bigger pans seem to be a good step..... Just my 2 cents.

Did you see how deep a lot of the EMC pans were? Gotta be something there, assuming you can fit it in the car.

[rfoll]

Hard cornering, hard acceleration, hard braking, or any combination can get the oil up on the crank. Once there, it tends to pull more up via surface tension. One G of force will put the oil at a 45 degree angle in the pan. I don't use anything in my daily driver stuff, but the effects of not adressing to issue on a track car can be measured on the time slip. One half qt. too high on the dip stick in my car will add a tenth sec. or more to the et.

[Kevin Johnson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iW ... re=related

Just in case you missed it, that is S C H R I C K.

[#84Dave]

Crank SCRAPER? If one were truly 'scraping' the oil off the rotating assembly, wouldn't that action cost TQ/HP? Most desirable to use an oil 'deflector'? And BTW...... does the 'pumping' action of the underside of all pistons moving up/down contribute to the 'windage' situation? Piston down = +pressure? Piston up = suction? Are there pressure 'pulses' in the lower engine case with the piston action affecting 'windage'? And does a constant vacuum in the lower case essentially eliminate windage, with 'oil deflection' then being the only concern? -Dave-

[Kevin Johnson]

Crank SCRAPER? If one were truly 'scraping' the oil off the rotating assembly, wouldn't that action cost TQ/HP? Most desirable to use an oil 'deflector'?

Yes, what's up with that? And why the heck does GM call a windage tray, errr ... an oil baffle plate, a deflector ?

And BTW...... does the 'pumping' action of the underside of all pistons moving up/down contribute to the 'windage' situation?

Yes.

... Piston down = +pressure? Piston up = suction? Are there pressure 'pulses' in the lower engine case with the piston action affecting 'windage'?

Yes.

And does a constant vacuum in the lower case essentially eliminate windage, with 'oil deflection' then being the only concern? -Dave-

No.

As a show of respect for particle theory over kinetic theory: it was decided in engineering that particles can model an atmosphere.

[#84Dave]

Shucks...... now I'm really BAFFLED! So as I think about your answers, Kevin..... if I have a -13.6" H2O vacuum in the lower case, instead of the engine case being @ 29.92" Hg(sea level), the inside of the case now would be @ 28.92"Hg....... & the danged wind can still blow??!! This is killing me...... I need to go back to the Aerospace business! LOL! -Dave-

[SupStk]

Talking now from just Dyno testing.... Kevin and Dave what do you recommend for modifications and how much power have you found?

What was your baseline set up and finished results?

[Kevin Johnson]

Shucks...... now I'm really BAFFLED! So as I think about your answers, Kevin..... if I have a -13.6" H2O vacuum in the lower case, instead of the engine case being @ 29.92" Hg(sea level), the inside of the case now would be @ 28.92"Hg....... & the danged wind can still blow??!! This is killing me...... I need to go back to the Aerospace business! LOL! -Dave-

Why do you think that in a "vacuum" particles (fine droplets of oil) will not display kinetic behavior?

[Edit: on another thread I suggested a solution to a NASA problem with high speed windage persisting even with depressed atmosphere in a high speed gear train. The lubricant takes on the attributes of an atmosphere and the gears act as pumps. A likely solution is to go to a non-newtonian rheology.]


The ejection pattern will make a basic reversion to disks in 3-space but droplets still bounce, even off the surface of fluids and after being struck by the rotating assembly. There are some nice high speed films of droplet behavior on youtube.

[Kevin Johnson]

Talking now from just Dyno testing.... Kevin and Dave what do you recommend for modifications and how much power have you found?

What was your baseline set up and finished results?

A recent very modern engine designed with full CAD gained 3.5% output at peak rpms with a windage tray (deflector) modified with screening and a zero-clearance scraper. Sitting on a static dyno.

[SupStk]

Talking now from just Dyno testing.... Kevin and Dave what do you recommend for modifications and how much power have you found?

What was your baseline set up and finished results?

A recent very modern engine designed with full CAD gained 3.5% output at peak rpms with a windage tray (deflector) modified with screening and a zero-clearance scraper. Sitting on a static dyno.

So on the 600HP engines I'm dealing with now we are talking 21 Horses? I'm already there... but still a long way from 60 that Jenkins was talking about.