What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

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stockcar5
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by stockcar5 »

raceman14 wrote:
Stockcar
I would also like to know who in MN did not remember me? Only folks I know from up there are Gene Pearson, Jason Line, Jerry Hemmingson, Warren Johnson and I think Todd Tesar was originally from MN. Myron Cottrell from TPIS, was a co-author on an article that Alan Lockheed did for Dave Emanuel did for Super Chevy magazine back in about 1982. Myron was a co-contibutor to the article and designed a manifold for EFI similar to the SmokeyRam I used on the 406 referenced in the article, my engine N/A was around 600hp and his 406 EFI engine was about 500 on pump gas. Bill Jones on here did the Heads and Intake manifold, I did the bottom end, Harold Brooksire did the camshaft for me and it was modeled on "The Engine Analyzer" software package by Alan Lockheed. I was told the cam would not work but it was one of those things where all of the parts were designed around the deal.The headers were done up in MN by "Headers by ED", at $3500 back in the day that was a ton but they were special for a Corvette with A/C. I still have the headers as a matter of fact...Dyno results from Keith Dorton at Automotive Specialists confirmed the results the CPU program kicked out. Might be none of these guys remember any of it, but I do because I paid for all of it out of my own pockets and that project from beginning to end cost about $38K from start to finish and I didn't get a penny for any of it. I did sell the engine to a street racer to fund the down payment on my first Superflow Chassis DYno.
keep guessing. pretty bad when you forget who you lie about..lol! =D>
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by IMCADW »

What does ANYTHING Snakeman14 said have to do with the max HP on a sealed GM 604... NOTHING

You have yet to talk about your super fantastic oil filters. That's about 100 horse you left out!!!
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by SWR »

Allan had Engine Expert.. The Engine Analyzer is Kevin Gertgen's program. Aaand I think this thread just about had enough of name calling, so the next posts better be good ones, or I'll send this thread on a hike...
-Bjørn

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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by jed »

Raceman I can clean parts, sweep the floor, simple welding, ECT. I dont have a ebay account and can read a micrometer.

I know what 8/5 means and have allways brown baged my lunch. I only need a bench and a stool to eat it on.

How bout and job interview??

OH my bike need a new chain and air the tires.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by levisnteeshirt »

raceman14 wrote:Mike,
I'd like to know who it was that did not remember me from an engine dyno session?
The 2 guys I use to seal my engines are Johnny Pruitt and Darrel Gabriel & every engine at either place over the last 5 years has been dyno'd.
Even though the on the head cam doctor does not reference lobe centerlines, it is pretty hard to change all of those numbers around without grinding some of the cam away and reducing the reference lobe base OD. I guess you could grind some off the front and back without reducing the base circle but the changes in either retard or advance would be picked up by referencing 1/2 on the duration numbers. Assymetrical lobe would probably fool that on the cam doctor but I am not sure that could be done and stay within reference #'s on the Adcole check.
That is the reason I was asking ???


Stockcar
I would also like to know who in MN did not remember me? Only folks I know from up there are Gene Pearson, Jason Line, Jerry Hemmingson, Warren Johnson and I think Todd Tesar was originally from MN. Myron Cottrell from TPIS, was a co-author on an article that Alan Lockheed did for Dave Emanuel did for Super Chevy magazine back in about 1982. Myron was a co-contibutor to the article and designed a manifold for EFI similar to the SmokeyRam I used on the 406 referenced in the article, my engine N/A was around 600hp and his 406 EFI engine was about 500 on pump gas. Bill Jones on here did the Heads and Intake manifold, I did the bottom end, Harold Brooksire did the camshaft for me and it was modeled on "The Engine Analyzer" software package by Alan Lockheed. I was told the cam would not work but it was one of those things where all of the parts were designed around the deal.The headers were done up in MN by "Headers by ED", at $3500 back in the day that was a ton but they were special for a Corvette with A/C. I still have the headers as a matter of fact...Dyno results from Keith Dorton at Automotive Specialists confirmed the results the CPU program kicked out. Might be none of these guys remember any of it, but I do because I paid for all of it out of my own pockets and that project from beginning to end cost about $38K from start to finish and I didn't get a penny for any of it. I did sell the engine to a street racer to fund the down payment on my first Superflow Chassis DYno.

Tshirt,
I am sure Dixie Performance, won't mind you talking up their crate engines and your carburetors, heck it might help out his crate business if he has only done 1 this past year. If he has only done a couple engines it would be difficult to determine what parts are there and how good they are compared to a baseline of the different series of parts that have come along in the last 10 years. Just so you know, there has been 3 different intake manifold versions, 4 different cylinder head versions, 3 changes in the timing chains and gears, 2 changes in the oil pans, 2 changes in the oil pump P/U, 2 versions of the crank & 3 versions of the PM rods.

The cylinder heads alone have had a variance of +/- 31CFM @ 25". If you can utilize 100% of this in your engine build that alone would be 30+ HP. This means the best set of heads you can find is probably 15-20HP better than an good set of heads and 20-30HP better than an average set of heads. Now if you match the right intake to those heads you will pick-up another 10-15HP if the final result of that is say 40HP and another 10-15HP you pick up by knowing what surface finish the rings like then you have an engine that is 40-50HP better than the next guy not working those advantages. Just because it is 50HP better does not mean it is illegal especially when it has gone thru National tech inspection dozens of times.

I am a true one man shop, no helpers or part-timers and I work 12-16 hours 5-6 days a week just to keep up. All of my engines that run in Fastrak or NeSmith have to be certified by another engine builder so not only is my reputation on the line but their reputation also.

why are you talking about Dixie Performance ?? I knew that man 30 years ago , he moved away ,, try again ,, I know where he is , he would laugh someone like you out of his shop ,, he's an expert ,, on engine building ,, not spreading BS ,, you might try that sometime yourself

and yes ,, i'm sure its quite hard for you to imagine ,, other people do know about the changes in those crate motors
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by LSP »

CamKing wrote:
stockcar5 wrote:another thing...raceman14 like to drop lots of names to support his claims. he happened to drop names of some folks i know up here in mn. in talking with them they know NOTHING of him. so smokey was wrong..definitely take with a grain of salt.
Yep, I called one of the places where he supposedly dyno'd his horspower monsters, and they have no memory of ever seeing a 604 make over 430hp on their dyno.
He mentioned to someone I know out west a few of the places/people he says he worked for, I know 2 of those people he mentioned, and they never heard of him either.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by levisnteeshirt »

i saw 437 the other day on gas ,,, best i've ever saw on a tight dyno ,, had a great set of headers , it went out and tied a lap record at a local track
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by Brian W »

Just dyno'd a new 604, straight from GM, with no modifications done to it. Made 438hp on VP CHP fuel.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by raceman14 »

SWR,
I know both Alan and Kevin and purchased both of their programs way long time ago. I met Alan at one of the first Superflow engine conferences, Alan introduced me to Bill Jones and Mike Chapman. Kevin introduced me to John Meany ( DFI ) and I did quite a bit of early work on the Laptop program and chassis dyno R&D for both the MAF and ASD systems in 1989 as I purchased a 1989 IROC for a project mule.

As far as folks in MN, don't really care who remembers me...anybody that had a clue moved down to Charlotte and the guy that stayed up there Gene Pearson has forgotten more about engine building than most of you. Don't know if it matters but he spent about $50K with me on his head machine and you can still go see it if you want to. Jerry Hemmingson hooked me up with Gene and also has one of my machines.

Brain W what did your GM604 make on pump gas?
Just got off Gabriels' Dyno yesterday and on his conservative piece GM604 made 437hp on pump gas. CHP = 452HP. Back calculation of about 15HP for CHP on Brian W's 604 yields about 423 on pump gas and I normally get 415-420 out of the box on pump gas so the dyno he is running on is about equal to the one I am running on.

Header swap from good old set to new design +11HP AVE / 22ft/#.

Carb update from 750hp to 750ADB = +14HP / +17ft#

As far as other engine builders, I have never said anything negative about any one of them on this site or any other. The dude at Dixie Perf. turned 4 or 5 cranks for me thru the years and welded up some journals for repair a couple years back.

Oh yea, and for you folks that can't read, I never said Smokey was wrong I stated that his research was done at a time when pistons had a 4" skirt and lots of drag. With slipper pistons now days short rods are quite a bit more efficient than they were way back when in the 60's. Wonder why some comp eliminators run low deck blocks and shorter rods, guess they don't know what is going on either.

JED,
Sounds like a good offer, I don't have any stools or chairs in the shop as it is for work and not sitting around...I might have one that I brought in so I can sit down in front of the chassis dyno. I have a DQ right accross the street where we can sit down for lunch, and yes they let me brown bag in there also if I buy a drink or ice-cream.

I have plenty of bicycles, parts and bike tools in the shop also as long ago used to build Race Bikes for Bikeways of Tucker back in the early 80's. I was fortunate enough to work for a great guy Bill who showed me how to build Italian race bikes to perfection. I was fortunate enough built quite a few $5000+ Gios', Pinarellos', and MASI's in my day. Heck I can even build you a wheel up from scratch if you need to as I still have my wheel jigs, hub and spoke tools. I have been working on an all titanium bike as that is one thing I always wanted to do, I know there are much lighter carbon ones out there but this one will still be good enough for you. My current shop is 12,000sq.ft 1950's era and my son rides his bike in there all the time,there is plenty of room to ride.

Got about 20 Racing Karts in there also if you want to build up a couple of them and sell them off.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by dirtracr5 »

from the way you talk in the internet i'm sure if somebody acutally did meet you they damn sure would remember you..lol!
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by raceman14 »

LSP,
Was wondering who it was that I dyno'd a GM604 with that did not hit at least 430HP?

Even 5 years ago stock ones out of the box with a decent carb and MS-109 or ELF made over 430HP.

Yesterday after break-in, the first pulls on my 17th GM604 Crate of 2012 it was 430HP+ on Chevron pump premium.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by Brian W »

raceman14 wrote:
Brain W what did your GM604 make on pump gas?
Just got off Gabriels' Dyno yesterday and on his conservative piece GM604 made 437hp on pump gas. CHP = 452HP. Back calculation of about 15HP for CHP on Brian W's 604 yields about 423 on pump gas and I normally get 415-420 out of the box on pump gas so the dyno he is running on is about equal to the one I am running on.
Did not run it on anything but CHP . Dyno calibration is checked before each engine is run on our dyno.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by Warp Speed »

raceman14 wrote: ChassisDYno testing;
After about5 years made a bet with a very famous CUP team owner I used to buy cars from and do Chassis DYno work for, I told him $150hr or $100 HP and he said yes until he saw we picked his car up almost 47RWHP in a little over 6 hours. Shortly after that I had a contract for 25hrs a week for 2 years initially, and that program went on for 9 years until Randy Dorton passed away.

Mark
dynoman14
So, you are saying you were doing chassis dyno and development work for Hendrick during this time?
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by raceman14 »

warpspeed,
Not that you deserve an explanation but here it is, just so it can be clear to you who I was dealing with, hope this puts your mind at ease ;
Yes, Tony Gibson was working with HMS at the same time as I was partnered up with his Brother Mark Gibson. We were both buying Hendrick cars, and engines and I was doing R&D work on both BGN and CUP engines for Randy and Scottie. If we dyno'd engines in Charlotte it was at Binghams or Jeffs shop in Denver. I also did wind tunnel stuff at Gary Eakers during that time as there was so much time rented that they could not use it all so I took it and did air box work and belly pan testing. My belly pan configurations are still some of the highest down ever tested and that was 10+ years ago.

When his brother changed over to DEI I did some stuff for them with the cars and engines Mark got from them. Randy Earnhardt sent me over a bunch of stuff to test on Juniors BGN stuff as I knew him from his time at Automotive Specialists and even before that.

During that time I purchased Gibbs cars and engines from JD and Jimmy Makar and Mark Cronquist, my chassis specialist was Shapiro and my shock guy was "hippie" from Alabama and Jason Enders. During that time I came to know most of the folks in the engine shop and met Jason Line, Joe Hornick, and Matt Bienemann. I sold them guys and their associates probably 4-5 Serdi machines in the last 10 years as they all moved on to NHRA & IHRA Pro-Stock teams.

I still have 3-4 of the Gibbs' cars in storage and will be selling them as vintage race cars when the 10 year time limit kicks in.

I wonder if anybody else on here has had to post a past work record or resume of race contacts.

Who did you work for during those times?
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
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Re: What is the Max HP on a sealed GM 604

Post by Warp Speed »

raceman14 wrote:warpspeed,

Who did you work for during those times?
Not that you deserve an answer, but the same place I have for the last 15 years....................Hendrick. :wink:

I actually tuned the 24 car around the time period you are speaking of. Not sure why we never met?!? :-k
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