SpeedTalk Store - Opinion Columns

Oil ring support rails

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Oil ring support rails

Postby Enigma » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:03 pm

Does anyone here have any experience with the Keith black "icon" line of forged pistons? I spent the morning measuring mine, got everything logged, then moved on to the oil ring support rails.....(the pin protrudes into the oil ring groove).....after I got them all measured I noticed that not one of them have the dimple that goes into the void facing downward to keep the support ring from rotating. Is this normal for kieth black "icon" forged pistons? I assumed all support rings had a dimple or some anti-rotation method. These have nothing at all.
Enigma
Member
Member
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby hodge » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:55 pm

Call united engine (icon) if they don't have the dimple don't use them
hodge
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby prostreetL-78 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:36 pm

I had some support rings with the dimple that were bent at the dimple causing the oil ring to bind which resulted in oil consumption. Keith at Total Seal sent me replacements with no dimple that are working fine.
Galatians 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
prostreetL-78
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Wolfplace » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:48 pm

Enigma wrote:Does anyone here have any experience with the Keith black "icon" line of forged pistons? I spent the morning measuring mine, got everything logged, then moved on to the oil ring support rails.....(the pin protrudes into the oil ring groove).....after I got them all measured I noticed that not one of them have the dimple that goes into the void facing downward to keep the support ring from rotating. Is this normal for kieth black "icon" forged pistons? I assumed all support rings had a dimple or some anti-rotation method. These have nothing at all.


If the support rail is correct for the groove you do not need a dimple the rail isn't going anywhere
Mike
Lewis Racing Engines
4axis CNC block machining


A few of the cars I have driven & owned
A tour of my shop
The Dyno
And a few pics of the gang

"Life is tough. Life is even tougher if you're stupid"
John Wayne
User avatar
Wolfplace
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 3340
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:39 pm
Location: Mendocino County, Northern CA

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby robert1 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:20 am

I see pretty good indentions into the piston from the dimple. If there was no force acting on the rail it shouldn't move from where I install the dimple in the middle of the pin bore. For me there's no way I would install them without the dimple. The rail could spiral around and unscrew out of the groove.
robert1
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 2495
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: missippippi

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Enigma » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:11 am

Thanks a bunch for your opinions guys. I had contemplated dimpling them myself, but I'll cal uem this week and see if they just sent out a bad set or if they were designed that way. That was my concern as well, Robert. Unspiralling or chewing into the ledge created by the pin hole.
Enigma
Member
Member
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Enigma » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:16 am

Wolfplace wrote:
Enigma wrote:Does anyone here have any experience with the Keith black "icon" line of forged pistons? I spent the morning measuring mine, got everything logged, then moved on to the oil ring support rails.....(the pin protrudes into the oil ring groove).....after I got them all measured I noticed that not one of them have the dimple that goes into the void facing downward to keep the support ring from rotating. Is this normal for kieth black "icon" forged pistons? I assumed all support rings had a dimple or some anti-rotation method. These have nothing at all.


If the support rail is correct for the groove you do not need a dimple the rail isn't going anywhere


I haven't test fit them yet, but by the measurements, they should fit snuggly in the groove with around a .050 gap, or thereabouts. You think they'll grip the back of the groove enough to keep them from rotating, Mr Lewis?
Enigma
Member
Member
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby robert1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:57 am

Sometimes asking the manufacturer still doesn't provide the correct answer. There is one major maufacturer that everyone here uses that puts the wrong rail in some of their pistons. The radial thickness is wrong leaving the od of the rail a good bit smaller than the bore. It's very difficult to install the rings as they tend to twist and come out of the ring groove during installation.
robert1
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 2495
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: missippippi

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Tony B » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:39 am

We ran them for a long time, before they had dimples. Prick the center of the piston at the gap, with a spring loaded center punch, they wont move then.TB
Tony B
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Location: Mendenhall MS

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Wolfplace » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:28 pm

Enigma wrote:
Wolfplace wrote:
Enigma wrote:Does anyone here have any experience with the Keith black "icon" line of forged pistons? I spent the morning measuring mine, got everything logged, then moved on to the oil ring support rails.....(the pin protrudes into the oil ring groove).....after I got them all measured I noticed that not one of them have the dimple that goes into the void facing downward to keep the support ring from rotating. Is this normal for kieth black "icon" forged pistons? I assumed all support rings had a dimple or some anti-rotation method. These have nothing at all.


If the support rail is correct for the groove you do not need a dimple the rail isn't going anywhere


I haven't test fit them yet, but by the measurements, they should fit snuggly in the groove with around a .050 gap, or thereabouts. You think they'll grip the back of the groove enough to keep them from rotating, Mr Lewis?


I don't have any experience with the ICON piston with their rail so I am not going to say it's the best plan,
I would recommend that you call & ask them if they want a dimple if you are at all unsure

Myself,
While I agree that having the dimple appears to be the better option considering it is a positive device to keep the rail from moving,,,

If the support fits the groove tightly & the ends are still nice & sharp like they normally come I do not feel it is necessary & do not have a problem running without a dimple.
At least this has been my experience & when I asked either Keith or Kevin at Total seal the same question years ago when I ran into rails without the dimple they told me the same thing with their support rails.

I think where you may run into a problem is getting a rail that "fits" multiple bore sizes,,,r something said to fit from say 4.500 to 4.560
They are real tight at 4.560,,, not so much at 4.500

I suppose I should add that we finish the bores pretty smooth too. If you finish them with a high crosshatch angle &/or on the rough side I would assume this would tend to cause more rotational loading to all the rings & in turn the rail, especially if it wasn't gripping the piston real good or did not have a positive stop.
=====

Tony
I like your idea,,,,
Where do you put the punch mark to locate the gap?
In the middle of the bottom ring groove?
Mike
Lewis Racing Engines
4axis CNC block machining


A few of the cars I have driven & owned
A tour of my shop
The Dyno
And a few pics of the gang

"Life is tough. Life is even tougher if you're stupid"
John Wayne
User avatar
Wolfplace
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 3340
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:39 pm
Location: Mendocino County, Northern CA

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Tony B » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:58 pm

Bottom of the ring groove, if the spacer tried to rotate. it would give it a place for the sharpe edge to bite into. NEVER had one move after doing this.TB
Tony B
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Location: Mendenhall MS

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby Wolfplace » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:59 pm

Tony B wrote:Bottom of the ring groove, if the spacer tried to rotate. it would give it a place for the sharpe edge to bite into. NEVER had one move after doing this.TB


Thanks
Mike
Lewis Racing Engines
4axis CNC block machining


A few of the cars I have driven & owned
A tour of my shop
The Dyno
And a few pics of the gang

"Life is tough. Life is even tougher if you're stupid"
John Wayne
User avatar
Wolfplace
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 3340
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:39 pm
Location: Mendocino County, Northern CA

Re: Oil ring support rails

Postby FlashCadilac » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:46 pm

Tony B wrote:Bottom of the ring groove, if the spacer tried to rotate. it would give it a place for the sharpe edge to bite into. NEVER had one move after doing this.TB


I like Tony have never had one move with this approach. Fit is critical!
FlashCadilac
New Member
New Member
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:03 pm


Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: numboltz, Yahoo [Bot] and 19 guests