Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve heads

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boss
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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:29 pm

anyone here by chance got any info on a similar multi valve sbc pushrod conversion, M/T's old pushrod 24V sbc head conversion?.

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Larry Salisbury
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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by Larry Salisbury » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:54 pm

boss wrote:neat pic, rocker assemblys look decent. I understand on the arias sbf conversion you have to get a custom ls style cam cut for the sbf to use them, dont know if that would effect/limit power?.
The Arias SBF Hemi kit does require a special cam with LS type valve layout. Sort of like how Bill Mitchell's SBC block with the LS head bolt pattern required. VERY limiting IMHO. Arias can get the Ford cam ground to customer specs where the SBC Hemi kit does not require a special cam configuration. Rocker shaft mounts are 7075-T6. Intake valves are 2.25in and exhaust are 1.6 with very long 7mm stems.

Larry


Nick Arias jr Racing Components
13406 S. Normandie Ave.
Gardena, CA 90249
(310) 323-RACE(7223)

boss
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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:38 pm

Larry Salisbury wrote:
boss wrote:neat pic, rocker assemblys look decent. I understand on the arias sbf conversion you have to get a custom ls style cam cut for the sbf to use them, dont know if that would effect/limit power?.
The Arias SBF Hemi kit does require a special cam with LS type valve layout. Sort of like how Bill Mitchell's SBC block with the LS head bolt pattern required. VERY limiting IMHO. Arias can get the Ford cam ground to customer specs where the SBC Hemi kit does not require a special cam configuration. Rocker shaft mounts are 7075-T6. Intake valves are 2.25in and exhaust are 1.6 with very long 7mm stems.

Larry


Nick Arias jr Racing Components
13406 S. Normandie Ave.
Gardena, CA 90249
(310) 323-RACE(7223)

I am just wondering/just got to ask, would you know if mr Arias ever had any thoughts of making any multi valve pushrod type heads???

maybe something/anything like mr Benjamins 3V pushrod deals???

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Larry Salisbury
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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by Larry Salisbury » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:28 am

boss wrote:
Larry Salisbury wrote:
boss wrote:neat pic, rocker assemblys look decent. I understand on the arias sbf conversion you have to get a custom ls style cam cut for the sbf to use them, dont know if that would effect/limit power?.

The Arias SBF Hemi kit does require a special cam with LS type valve layout. Sort of like how Bill Mitchell's SBC block with the LS head bolt pattern required. VERY limiting IMHO. Arias can get the Ford cam ground to customer specs where the SBC Hemi kit does not require a special cam configuration. Rocker shaft mounts are 7075-T6. Intake valves are 2.25in and exhaust are 1.6 with very long 7mm stems.

Larry


Nick Arias jr Racing Components
13406 S. Normandie Ave.
Gardena, CA 90249
(310) 323-RACE(7223)

I am just wondering/just got to ask, would you know if mr Arias ever had any thoughts of making any multi valve pushrod type heads???

maybe something/anything like mr Benjamins 3V pushrod deals???




We have discussed this, but no interest. I'm not sure if that type of setup would show significant gains over the 2V LS Hemi head. Peak flow on the LS Hemi heads: 409cfm@.800 intake and 301cfm@ .600in exhaust. I have suggested improvements to Nick for a more modern configuration. Dual plugs and a provision for direct injection would be my call.

Larry


Nick Arias jr Racing Components
13406 S. Normandie Ave.
Gardena, CA 90249
(310) 323-RACE(7223)

boss
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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:12 am

anyone here have anymore info on Crowers/P&S 4V BBC pushrod heads from the early 80's?, im looking to find out if Crowers SBC 4V head version used the same pushrod layout?

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:21 am

hell of a deal $2800 for the 4V weslake heads back then.

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by shoedoos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:02 am

Pinched from a website in New Zealand....

http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthr ... lour/page3

Some details re Weslake 4 valve Chev 350, ex Bellis-----
The short block was just the usual racing small block v8, Steel GM crank, Carillos, roller cam, roller chain cam drive, forged pistons etc but the pistons were flat tops, in fact slightly recessed, and dry sumped with Weaver 3 stage pump.
The heads were were designed to just bolt on with a minimum of modification and had beautifull porting, twin rocker shafts, 2 inlet and 2 exhaust valves per cylinder that were operated by forked cast steel rockers with an adjusting screw at the pushrod end. (Tappet adjustment was done by grinding the lash caps so you had equal clearence at both valves, then adjusting the final clearences with the screw). The valve stems were same diameter as BMC A series and quite/very long, the heads quite small and the valve lift was quite low. It also had individule intake runners with slide throttle plates and Scintiller Vertex magneto locked with no advance and Lucas timed mechanical fuel injection. (To get it to idle at acceptable rpm I fitted an electronic distributor with centrifugal advance so the timing at idle was retarded because the throttles leaked so much air it idled way too fast.
The weakness with the engine design was the angles of the pushrods especially the inlets. Even thought they were 3/8 diameter hardened chrome molly tube they still flexed excessively as evidenced by the contact markings, yet when turning the engine by hand there was plenty of clearence!
When first running it on the dyno I was impressed by the exhaust noise, it was beautiful music! And produced 605 bhp at 6000 rpm, with a flat torque curve from 2500rpm. The power fell off very quick over 6500 due to the flexing pushrods losing valve control. Then we encountered issues with inlet valve springs, (breaking), and the valve covers and valley filling up with oil due to excessive oiling to the valve gear and poor drainage, this caused oil leaks and loss of oil pressure due to low level in the dry sump tank an probably aireation. These problems explained why Bellis could only do a couple of laps at a time before blowing smoke and oil at the two meetings he raced it at (Puke and Bay Park) After modifying the oiling system and the inlet rocker geometry and springs/retainers it started to go pretty well.
Roy Grainger raced it quite successfully in his leaf sprung old technology super saloon speedway car with a Powerglyde auto with no torque converter/clutch, locked in 2nd gear, but cooling was a problem so I converted it to run on methanol, this kept it cooler and gave if more power as well. (Not that it needed more)
I spent many hours on that project and learned heaps, didn't charge enough, but I enjoyed it and have a soft spot for that engine.
PK.

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by 140Air » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:18 pm

PackardV8 wrote:Looking at those, I'm getting an Ardun vibe. Lot's of engineering, casting and complication to work with the common short block of the day. Anyone want to wager today's better LS heads will make more horsepower per cubic inch?
jack vines
What are you thinking Jack?
Arao makes some modern versions. When I see these I think about rpm limits. It's the heavy pushrods and cam lobes... But, the two valve springs could provide way more return force than is necessary to control all the heavy parts. Then, the cam lobes have to survive. DLC coatings? Otherwise, the LS can either out rpm it or out cam it in terms of valve lift and acceleration.

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by lada ok » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:53 pm

PackardV8 wrote:Looking at those, I'm getting an Ardun vibe. Lot's of engineering, casting and complication to work with the common short block of the day. Anyone want to wager today's better LS heads will make more horsepower per cubic inch?

jack vines
When first running it on the dyno I was impressed by the exhaust noise, it was beautiful music! And produced 605 bhp at 6000 rpm, with a flat torque curve from 2500rpm. The power fell off very quick over 6500 due to the flexing push rods losing valve control.

WELL ? ................. 105.5 bhp / Lt @ 6500
just imagine if you could keep that poxy push rod system under control to 8000 rpm

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:41 pm

shoedoos wrote:Pinched from a website in New Zealand....

http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthr ... lour/page3
thanks for posting that link shoedoo's, very interested in any/all info on the weslake heads as i am also looking at making my own 4 valve pushrod version now based on weslakes and araos early design.

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if there was a problem with pushrod flex with that particular weslake headed engine i suspect the pushrods were flawed or maybe too high of spring pressures, imo a steped or tapered pushrod is the best design for a multi valve pushrod head.

muti valve pushrod tech has been around since the early 1900's on cars and bikes and works Fine at high rpm with the right setup.
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arao spining his weslake modeled heads to 8000rpm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCooHKSE ... cQg-ZuLJYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JygTz0ow ... g&index=14

imo Weslakes design and the arao version copy is one of the best for high rpm as its pushrod layout is simular to the canted valve cleveland head
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other multi valve pushrod designs like the TP head that use a idler pushrod dont have high rpm issues either.
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todays multi valve pushrod heads (like from kawasaki and guzzi as an example) which are simular in design to Feulings 4 valve pushrod HD heads work even better with todays better tech.
kawa
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link to my CB-4V weslake head version...
http://www.performance-shop.com/showthr ... 186&page=2
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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:52 pm

Billzilla wrote:Interesting! I have never heard of those heads before. The chamber shape and ports look half reasonable as well.

FWIW there was an aftermarket wheel company in Australia by the name of Globe that built a very limited number of DOHC 32v heads for small block Fords. I can't even find a photo of them any more, it's a shame.

i posted some pics of Globes 32v sbf conversion kit half way down the page here...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1585&start=165

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by user-9613590 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:35 am

Will you please forget the pushrods.. Study for example how the Honda D-series head is made
https://www.google.fi/search?q=honda+D- ... 1024%3B768

WTF,that long link..

But it is surprisinlgy simple and small package for a 16 valve.And millions of they run around the world without a problem.So don't invent the wheel again but look what is done.

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:30 am

dont need to invent anything, the multi valve pushrod wheel was invented back in the early 1900's, some should really get over it... http://thevintagent.blogspot.ca/2014/04 ... -road.html

found a pic of Weslakes original 4V test mockup

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by 140Air » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:56 am

shoedoos wrote:Pinched from a website in New Zealand....

http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthr ... lour/page3

Some details re Weslake 4 valve Chev 350, ex Bellis-----
... the valve lift was quite low.....The weakness with the engine design was the angles of the pushrods especially the inlets. Even thought they were 3/8 diameter hardened chrome molly tube they still flexed excessively as evidenced by the contact markings, yet when turning the engine by hand there was plenty of clearence!
....PK.
Thanks for this reference.

Paul indicates that there were (crippling) valve train issues. Flexing pushrods, very low lift and still breaking springs are telltale. The fact it produced a lot of power even with these issues also says a lot.

I think that parts breakage in pushrod designs is often an indication of oscillations, other than and in addition to spring surge, in the system.

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Re: Just for interest's sake - Weslake SB Chevy 4-valve head

Post by boss » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:36 am

again, if that particular engine was breaking valve springs then there were other issues with that particular setup.

Crower also dynoed Weslakes heads at over 600hp on a 327sbc with no valvetrain issues and i understood Crowers own 32 valve sbc eng design in his streamliner used design elements of Weslakes.
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http://www.crower.com/crower-history/
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("THE BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS
In addition to product testing and development, both of Crower’s Bonneville race cars were completely designed and constructed at the Jamul facility. A 1927 Model-T roadster equipped with a 700hp 1931 straight-8 Nash engine, and a state-of-theart streamliner powered by a turbocharged small block Chevy and a pair of prototype Crower 4-valve cylinder heads. He first touted the idea of a four-valve production head for the small-block Chevy back in 1965 after inventing a head with an inlet port on the same plane as the exhaust port. Chevy engineers were so impressed they had prototypes drawn and cast within 30 days. Unfortunately, the various race sanctioning bodies indicated that they would have to ban it because it would have given certain racers an unfair advantage. The streamliner, however, is in the Unlimited Class and with the help of the heads and some other radical design solutions, it is projected to run over 440 mph at 1150 horsepower on the Bonneville salt flats.")

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