Racing Oil lab tests - and others

[lorax]

It was a simple question Kevin, did they conduct the tests on a absorber dyno.

[Kevin Johnson]

One of the most irritating experiences in a graduate seminar, for which one was paying thousands of dollars in tuition, was to have members not read the assignment but pose piercing incisive questions so as to attempt to conceal this or make it seemingly irrelevant.

[lorax]

One of the most irritating experiences in a graduate seminar, for which one was paying thousands of dollars in tuition, was to have members not read the assignment but pose piercing incisive questions so as to attempt to conceal this or make it seemingly irrelevant.

What ever Kevin.
Like I said before, I don't go looking for solutions to problems I don't have. I don't have the time to hunt down ghosts.
I don't really need to know how they determined the oil wasn't doing the job, only that they learned it, and that I may have benefited from what they learned.
Back in 2001-2002 when we were running 76 fuel I had the chance to meet and talk with Tim about fuels and oils maybe 2-3 times. I don't remember him once giving me the BS line you just gave me. You couldn't pick up and carry the papers he has read or written. But like you said, Tim IS a nice guy!!!
I don't really need your input. I am doing just fine without it, thank you.

My point since this ridiculous topic started months ago is that Rat's tests, DV tests, and any other test is meaningless unless it can duplicate the real environment the oil will be face with, NOW, it seems YOU might be jumping on that band wagon. congratulations, you have ALMOST caught up to the real world of racing lubrication requirements.

I don't need a dyno, I have an engine. Does it really matter if the engine is destroyed on the dyno due to the wrong oil, or a race, except the lose of the race? I think I lost 2 races early on due to oil related failures. But I have hurt a ton of parts thru those years. Does it help my wallet if the parts are damaged on the dyno or in the race. Aren't they still junk? Would I like a million dollar eddy current dyno. Sure. But I can get there without one.

Would buying that paper help MY program. HOW? I don't run a Cup car. Would you suggest Alan Johnson or Don Schumacher read that paper. Will it help them?
Like Warp said earlier, it over a decade old. Things change. I am not running the oil I ran 5 years ago. If I was, its even changed.
Every drop of oil in the big box store has changed in the past 10 years.

[Kevin Johnson]

... Like I said before, I don't go looking for solutions to problems I don't have. I don't have the time to hunt down ghosts.
I don't really need to know how they determined the oil wasn't doing the job, only that they learned it, and that I may have benefited from what they learned.

Knowing how data is generated is very important if you are constantly pushing technology forward. When I ask 540 Rat for more details on his experiments that is why I do it: it would make his information much more valuable. If he decided to self-publish and ask $23.00 for the details that would seem reasonable as well.

Back in 2001-2002 when we were running 76 fuel I had the chance to meet and talk with Tim about fuels and oils maybe 2-3 times. I don't remember him once giving me the BS line you just gave me. You couldn't pick up and carry the papers he has read or written. But like you said, Tim IS a nice guy!!!

When I spoke with him he shared that he has a degree in mechanical engineering. I interacted with a whole slew of engineering students and professors at USF. I did not once get the impression that any of them felt you would not need to read the material you are studying, much less discuss it. [Aside: No, I need to temper that. In an engineering course I took, Glen Besterfield warned students that he would be comparing submitted papers to a database of existing coursework. Despite the explicit warning, several students were caught submitting copies of papers written by previous students but, of course, then they were no longer engineering students by self-determination.]

I was an assistant to several of my own professors and helped find and put on library reserve citations they assigned to read.* Samantha helped me do this -- it was a lot of work. If a professor wanted to copy and distribute materials directly to the students then he needed to obtain permission from the publisher. Often an author has the right to provide copies of a paper to individuals that ask him or her directly.

* Sadly, if care was not taken to protect the material some "students" would seek to destroy it in order to bias the grading curve in their favor.

I don't really need your input. I am doing just fine without it, thank you.

I understand and can accept that. I am trying to encourage pushing knowledge forward.

My point since this ridiculous topic started months ago is that Rat's tests, DV tests, and any other test is meaningless unless it can duplicate the real environment the oil will be face with, NOW, it seems YOU might be jumping on that band wagon. congratulations, you have ALMOST caught up to the real world of racing lubrication requirements.

You are leaving out the process of validation where researchers go back and forth and compare the controlled experimental results with the data obtained from the real environment. Yes, there are always confounds or areas that could affect the validity of the inferences. You bring up absorber dynos and I bring up frames of acceleration for active dynos, for example.

Some contemplation will also reveal that a test in the real environment will never have the same identical conditions twice. Be careful with extrapolating from data via inductive reasoning.

[Warp Speed]

Tim is a great guy to talk to:

Q: When did this testing at RCR take place?

A: In 1999 -- the SAE paper had been submitted quite some time before it was published.

Q: Were seven different engines built or the same engine rebuilt seven times?

A: The same engine was rebuilt seven times.

Q: Do you feel that a dyno test can still be devised that will be as severe or more severe than on the track testing?

A: Definitely. The test cycle used was called the "Michigan Test" and modeled after the conditions at the International Speedway. It simulated 500 miles of WOT with +/-1000 rpm variation. Peak RPM levels at the time were 8900 to 9000. Typical engines at the time were built to draw 18 inches of vacuum via the dry sump and this would drop down to about 12 inches by the end of the race and this was considered acceptable. Particular problem areas were the top ring sticking to the land and the wrist pins in the center four pistons, 3, 5, 4, and 6 that lay directly under the exhaust ports. Exhaust gas temps were 1550 to 1600 F.

Q: Is my impression correct that none of the oils tested represented a final choice?

A: That is correct. The information gathered was used to formulate a different race oil.

Q: Was there any further test that you wish could have been performed?

A: Yes, he would have liked to have been able to subject the final formulation to the same series of tests.

I also asked Tim if he knew Joe Clemens and he said that he shared an office with him. He was very familiar with the aeration test that Joe and Jim Widergren developed and that it was very effective and used at Union Oil through the mid 1990s (till when the plant closed). Jim Widergren was a student intern at the time.

Kind of the time frame I imagined if Unocal was involved.
Soooo many things have changed since then in both the engine usage/duty cycle, parts design and testing.
Engine changes include:
+100hp
+900-1000rpm's
Bearing clearances are about half of what they were then.
Cam and lifter materials have gone from Stellite overalys with iron tappets to Tool steel cams with coated tool steel tappets.
Spring pressures have changed drasticly, along with valve train velocities, sizes and materials used.
Depression is up 5+ in.
Running temps have increased 40+ degrees.
Oil control inside the engine has improved dramaticly.

I believe GM didn't have their first AVL on line untill about 3-4 years after the test was performed. I believe the test was ran on a water break, so no deccel loads present.

Just listing some of the changes that make the test almost irrelavent to today.

Technology in Cup racing REALLY changed from 1999 to 20002-3 due to the huge influx of dollars at the time. Today, we often look back at those times and chuckle at some of the things we did!!!!!

[GARY C]

Warp, can you share what has changed in the oils Cup uses over that period of time?

[Warp Speed]

Warp, can you share what has changed in the oils Cup uses over that period of time?

Not much I can say other than ALLOT!!!

And it is constantly changing...............

[swatson454]

Warp,

I'd sure like to know what parts are on the verge of death after the race. At what point during the race to the engine builders start pacing back and forth and what parts are they concerned with?

I bet everything in those engines is on the ragged edge and I'd imagine that keeping your oils on pace with everything else is a full-time endeavor.


Shawn

You guys spend hours on end at well over 300 degrees, don't you?

[Kevin Johnson]

Kind of the time frame I imagined if Unocal was involved.
Soooo many things have changed since then in both the engine usage/duty cycle, parts design and testing.
Engine changes include:
+100hp
+900-1000rpm's
Bearing clearances are about half of what they were then.
Cam and lifter materials have gone from Stellite overalys with iron tappets to Tool steel cams with coated tool steel tappets.
Spring pressures have changed drasticly, along with valve train velocities, sizes and materials used.
Depression is up 5+ in.
Running temps have increased 40+ degrees.
Oil control inside the engine has improved dramaticly.

I believe GM didn't have their first AVL on line untill about 3-4 years after the test was performed. I believe the test was ran on a water break, so no deccel loads present.

Just listing some of the changes that make the test almost irrelavent to today.

Technology in Cup racing REALLY changed from 1999 to 20002-3 due to the huge influx of dollars at the time. Today, we often look back at those times and chuckle at some of the things we did!!!!!

No, didn't read the full article, just glanced over what you posted. No need for me to purchase an article that was done 10-15 years ago. Sooooo many things have changed since then, in both engine design, materials, temps, usage and testing methods, that it would be counter productive for me to do so. I perform testing, like mentioned in the article, EVERY day.......on an AVL.
We work with the engineers at both Shell/QS and Mobile to formulate oils that are specific to our needs.

Analysis:

Just given the information you mention combined with the test data in the paper and talking with Tim it is possible to infer a vast amount.

I think the Shell and Mobil engineers will be familiar with the paper; ask them. That would be mind boggling if they were not -- or they are themselves reporting back to someone who does more analysis. At some stage this will likely be an expert computer program.

Sometimes labs are run idiosyncratically where it is decided that people that specialize in running tests do just that. They do not want technicians questioning or challenging the engineers as that would be counter-productive. Each person has a defined set of tasks and they become expert at performing them.

This is not meant as an insult but repeating back to you what you are saying.

[Warp Speed]

Heavy Sigh...............................................

Nevermind!

[lorax]

Heavy Sigh...............................................

Nevermind!

[Kevin Johnson]

Heavy Sigh...............................................

Nevermind!

Yes, I know the heavy sigh very well.

"Scuffing" A qualitative term used to characterize certain types of wear. If you are unfamiliar with the prior usage of the term with exemplars then building upon that work is a bit difficult. You think you know but you don't realize that you really don't know because you have not followed the research for even fifteen years.

In these cases the oil has
failed to provide a protective film on the
surface of the sliding contact. Lack of a protective film
results in adhesion of the mating surfaces and metal
transfer. This is commonly observed as microwelding of
aluminum on the bottom side of the top ring,
microwelding of aluminum to the steel wrist pin, or
smeared metal on the lifter or cam mating surfaces.
This last phenomenon is referred to as ‘scuffing’. There
is little agreement in the literature on what scuffing is,
what causes it, or how oil additives prevent it.(1-4) In
this paper scuffing refers to wear damage caused by
adhesion of mating surfaces followed by the tearing of
material from one surface which is then transferred to
the mating surface.

See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36807#p448811 by Dan Timberlake

Does anyone really take the time to read through these links? Yes, some do.

Hint: In the above links look at "scoring" and do some cross referencing.

So, yes, lots of heavy sighs here as well.

[GARY C]

Warp, can you share what has changed in the oils Cup uses over that period of time?

Not much I can say other than ALLOT!!!

And it is constantly changing...............

Hell, I could have got that answer and a cold beer from a spectator in the infield...