Racing Oil lab tests - and others

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Tim is a great guy to talk to:

Q: When did this testing at RCR take place?

A: In 1999 -- the SAE paper had been submitted quite some time before it was published.

Q: Were seven different engines built or the same engine rebuilt seven times?

A: The same engine was rebuilt seven times.

Q: Do you feel that a dyno test can still be devised that will be as severe or more severe than on the track testing?

A: Definitely. The test cycle used was called the "Michigan Test" and modeled after the conditions at the International Speedway. It simulated 500 miles of WOT with +/-1000 rpm variation. Peak RPM levels at the time were 8900 to 9000. Typical engines at the time were built to draw 18 inches of vacuum via the dry sump and this would drop down to about 12 inches by the end of the race and this was considered acceptable. Particular problem areas were the top ring sticking to the land and the wrist pins in the center four pistons, 3, 5, 4, and 6 that lay directly under the exhaust ports. Exhaust gas temps were 1550 to 1600 F.

Q: Is my impression correct that none of the oils tested represented a final choice?

A: That is correct. The information gathered was used to formulate a different race oil.

Q: Was there any further test that you wish could have been performed?

A: Yes, he would have liked to have been able to subject the final formulation to the same series of tests.

I also asked Tim if he knew Joe Clemens and he said that he shared an office with him. He was very familiar with the aeration test that Joe and Jim Widergren developed and that it was very effective and used at Union Oil through the mid 1990s (till when the plant closed). Jim Widergren was a student intern at the time.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
lorax
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by lorax »

Maybe I am lost. Did someone say you cannot test an oil on a dyno, or just on a Superflow that DV has.
Never heard DV had a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Testing an oil on a Superflow for anything other than POSSIBLY power gain, is like measure wind velocity with a wet finger,.
F-BIRD'88
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9802
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:56 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Yup... this is "where the rubber meets the road" as they say.
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

lorax wrote:Maybe I am lost. Did someone say you cannot test an oil on a dyno, or just on a Superflow that DV has.
Never heard DV had a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Testing an oil on a Superflow for anything other than POSSIBLY power gain, is like measure wind velocity with a wet finger,.
The article examines the oil formulations, additive interference and gives photos and evaluations of the damaged parts -- and there were damaged parts. No mention of looking for power gain. I think the idea was to maintain hp through controlling wear/damage to the parts.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
lorax
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by lorax »

Kevin Johnson wrote:
lorax wrote:Maybe I am lost. Did someone say you cannot test an oil on a dyno, or just on a Superflow that DV has.
Never heard DV had a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Testing an oil on a Superflow for anything other than POSSIBLY power gain, is like measure wind velocity with a wet finger,.
The article examines the oil formulations, additive interference and gives photos and evaluations of the damaged parts -- and there were damaged parts. No mention of looking for power gain. I think the idea was to maintain hp through controlling wear/damage to the parts.
For a guy that CLAIMS to have an education in language you sure do struggle with reading comprehension.
Never said HMS or Tosco was looking for power now did I ??
I WROTE that only thing you could POSSOBLY prove on a "I have a dyno" Superflow was a POSSIBLE HP gain.
I wrote you cannot possibly hope to prove a real world test of an oil on a Superflow.

Did I post ANYTHING different than that Kevin, or are you just phising for another argument AGAIN!
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Yup... this is "where the rubber meets the road" as they say.
Project 928 (Porsche 928) wrote:There were the especially spectacular endurance runs on engine test brakes: a full-load bench run of more than 3 000 hours as well as five runs of 600 hours each between December 1975 and March 1977.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

lorax wrote:
Kevin Johnson wrote:
lorax wrote:Maybe I am lost. Did someone say you cannot test an oil on a dyno, or just on a Superflow that DV has.
Never heard DV had a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Testing an oil on a Superflow for anything other than POSSIBLY power gain, is like measure wind velocity with a wet finger,.
The article examines the oil formulations, additive interference and gives photos and evaluations of the damaged parts -- and there were damaged parts. No mention of looking for power gain. I think the idea was to maintain hp through controlling wear/damage to the parts.
For a guy that CLAIMS to have an education in language you sure do struggle with reading comprehension.
Never said HMS or Tosco was looking for power now did I ??
I WROTE that only thing you could POSSOBLY prove on a "I have a dyno" Superflow was a POSSIBLE HP gain.
I wrote you cannot possibly hope to prove a real world test of an oil on a Superflow.

Did I post ANYTHING different than that Kevin, or are you just phising for another argument AGAIN!
:lol: Slow down. I am sure your explanation stands on its own merits.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
lorax
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by lorax »

Kevin Johnson wrote:
F-BIRD'88 wrote:a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Yup... this is "where the rubber meets the road" as they say.
Project 928 (Porsche 928) wrote:There were the especially spectacular endurance runs on engine test brakes: a full-load bench run of more than 3 000 hours as well as five runs of 600 hours each between December 1975 and March 1977.
You quoted ME when you wrote that last post, now you are quoting F bird and Profect 928. You phising?
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

lorax wrote:
Kevin Johnson wrote:
F-BIRD'88 wrote:a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Yup... this is "where the rubber meets the road" as they say.
Project 928 (Porsche 928) wrote:There were the especially spectacular endurance runs on engine test brakes: a full-load bench run of more than 3 000 hours as well as five runs of 600 hours each between December 1975 and March 1977.
You quoted ME when you wrote that last post, now you are quoting F bird and Profect 928. You phising?
A bit touchy, I think. No offense was intended.

If I could find the citation when Lotus was working on the 'Vette engine with hundreds (I think thousands) of hours of dyno time I would include it as well.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
lorax
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by lorax »

What does any of this have to do with testing and supposedly determining the suitability of any oil using a Superflow or a bench test? Wasn't that the POINT here? Like Warp Speed said, you have a hard time staying on topic??

How is anything you are NOW saying anything different that what I said on this subject 5 threads ago?? What's your point here Kevin?
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by GARY C »

lorax wrote:Maybe I am lost. Did someone say you cannot test an oil on a dyno, or just on a Superflow that DV has.
Never heard DV had a engine strapped to a dyno cycling between max torque and max power, for 50 straight hours.

Testing an oil on a Superflow for anything other than POSSIBLY power gain, is like measure wind velocity with a wet finger,.
I think you are assuming he does one test and draws a conclusion, you forget that he still builds many engines on a regular bases and races these engines are is involved with the teams that race them so that he can gather data, he also has to have a dyno mule that is repeatable for a long time and has found that OE does that.

If you know who DV does business with and what shops allow him to use their equipment at will you would realize what he has access to and for these level of race teams to trust him he obviously has a reputation that is rock solid.

If you think he hasn't done 50+ hour tests then your greatly underestimating what he does.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
lorax
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by lorax »

GARY C wrote:
If you know who DV does business with and what shops allow him to use their equipment at will you would realize what he has access to and for these level of race teams to trust him he obviously has a reputation that is rock solid.

If you think he hasn't done 50+ hour tests then your greatly underestimating what he does.
You don't get it. I do 300 + hour test on my street oil every change. Not exactly the same as trying to determine if a particular oil is suitable for a particular use. DV is TOTALLY incapable of determining that on a dyno for much more than a drag engine, OR, at the very best, for a particular engine build. You cannot test on oil in a SBC on a Superflow, over DAYS of short burst tests and determine its fit for anything you wish to do with that oil.
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

lorax wrote:What does any of this have to do with testing and supposedly determining the suitability of any oil using a Superflow or a bench test? Wasn't that the POINT here? Like Warp Speed said, you have a hard time staying on topic??

How is anything you are NOW saying anything different that what I said on this subject 5 threads ago?? What's your point here Kevin?
Lorax,

Have you read the SAE paper that I am referring to yet?

If you have not then my suggestion is to do it and we can move forward from there. I am not trying to be offensive, just practical.

The dyno test is outlined, step by step. You could repeat it if you wished to.

I guess Mr. Vizard could repeat it if he wished to.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
lorax
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by lorax »

Kevin Johnson wrote:
lorax wrote:What does any of this have to do with testing and supposedly determining the suitability of any oil using a Superflow or a bench test? Wasn't that the POINT here? Like Warp Speed said, you have a hard time staying on topic??

How is anything you are NOW saying anything different that what I said on this subject 5 threads ago?? What's your point here Kevin?
Lorax,

Have you read the SAE paper that I am referring to yet?

If you have not then my suggestion is to do it and we can move forward from there. I am not trying to be offensive, just practical.

The dyno test is outlined, step by step. You could repeat it if you wished to.

I guess Mr. Vizard could repeat it if he wished to.
No I have not read it, no I am not going to pay to read it. Why don't you enlighten us all with the basic idea of the test procedure. But please try to use basic English. I know its not you style, but some us don't have the 30 years of Harvard advanced jargon you do

But something tells me that they did not conduct those test with an absorber dyno
Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 9365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Racing Oil lab tests - and others

Post by Kevin Johnson »

lorax wrote:
Kevin Johnson wrote:
lorax wrote:What does any of this have to do with testing and supposedly determining the suitability of any oil using a Superflow or a bench test? Wasn't that the POINT here? Like Warp Speed said, you have a hard time staying on topic??

How is anything you are NOW saying anything different that what I said on this subject 5 threads ago?? What's your point here Kevin?
Lorax,

Have you read the SAE paper that I am referring to yet?

If you have not then my suggestion is to do it and we can move forward from there. I am not trying to be offensive, just practical.

The dyno test is outlined, step by step. You could repeat it if you wished to.

I guess Mr. Vizard could repeat it if he wished to.
No I have not read it, no I am not going to pay to read it. Why don't you enlighten us all with the basic idea of the test procedure. But please try to use basic English. I know its not you style, but some us don't have the 30 years of Harvard advanced jargon you do

But something tells me that they did not conduct those test with an absorber dyno
When C.F. Taylor was being discussed I spent more than $23.00 in gasoline driving to and from the university library to check out his text and read it so that I could participate in the discussion intelligently. I did the same with Professor Blair's work. The SAE is very explicit about copyrighted work and their charge is not unreasonable.
Driving Force Online: BREAKING NEWS—Ohio Governor Signs SEMA-Supported Vehicle Freedom Bill Into Law!
Post Reply