AFR heads on 406 sbc, how much hp

[Orr89rocz]

350cfm is alot of airflow for a 23 deg head.

My friend has old AFR 195 non eliminators that were ported to about 208cc and flowed 310cfm. Enough to make 521whp thru a 6spd with a victor EFI singleplane, all 93 oct pump gas, and 248/254 UDharold grind. Ran 10.47 at 131 in a 3400 lb latemodel fbody. ~610 crank hp if you go by the typical 15% loss that the latemodel T56 cars are seeing. Not bad, but far cry from 700hp. I think the comp ported elminator 210's are about as much as you can get out of a 210 head. I think Big Joe has cleaned them up to around 2.28" CSA and has made 650hp

[Fatman]

Larry, very impressive build you have there.

" Dart Pro 1's 23 deg Heads unwelded, no epoxy"

I didn't think you could support that kind of rpm with unwelded P/rod. Is the velocity too fast though prod pinch?
Are the dart pro1s the best 23 deg head to use for the kind of build that you have listed. thanks

you can make a little more HP out of the Dart 215cc or 230cc by welding + widening pushrod pinch

unwelded at 240cc , they are about maxed out in velocity at pushrod pinch on 440cid @ 8300 RPM

the Dart Pro-1 23deg has all the metal in correct places
and i end up with a 240cc Intake port starting from either 215cc or 230cc versions.

2.125/1.600 +.200 longer valves from how they come from Dart

here's Info on Brodix Track 1's i ground the Track 1's Intake Ports into
my best Dart Pro 1 240 cc shape,
tried to turn Track 1 heads into Dart Pro 1 shapes

Dyno results->
_________________________________________________________

440cid SBC Brodix Track-1 Heads make 801 HP

Peak TQ = 595.5 @ 6500 RPM
Peak HP = 800.7 @ 8000 RPM
600 RPM/SEC

Oct 24, 2010 Chris and Buddy Valentine 4.185x4.000= 440.2 cid
Brodix Track-1 Heads STS233 2.125/1.600 max ported by Meaux
Dart Pro-1 Intake Ports ground into Track-1's to create a 240 CC Port identical to Dart Pro-1
FelPro# 1206 Int gasket
Edelbrock Super Victor 2970 w/SuperSucker 2inch
Chris Headers 2-step 2, 2 1/8 w/4 inch Collector
ProSystems Carb
Diamond 12.8 cc Domes 15:1 CR C-16 Race Fuel
Cam Motion Roller
1.80/1.80 Jesels
Billet Fab alum full kickout w/Royal Purple 10/30 breakin
GZ MotorSports Vac Pump
---------------
.025 Lash
227 cranking psi @ 16-Volts at approx 275 Cranking RPM after 10 needle pulses
35 from 38
hookup Star Vac Pump
Q-16
37 from 35 btdc
Royal Purple XPR 10/40 oil



Update : May 9, 2011 Dyno test Track 1 Intake Ports ground to Dart Pro-1 Port shapes @ 240 CC
tried something new out ... looks promising !
Peak TQ= 598.6 @ 6600 RPM
Peak HP= 807.4 @ 7900 RPM

Larry,

I thought the Pro 1s got real close to water in the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?

Thanks

[Joel Dubose]

I would like to share a true story. I have a friend who has a Camaro. He had a 23* sb in it. Hr wanted more power. I suggested that he step up and buy a set of 18* heads. This was many years ago when an 18* head was as good as there was. But he had a goal for power. We debated and he said that he already had a 23* engine and to save money he wanted to stick with it. He felt that it would save money. He bought a set of dart pro one heads and away we went.. in his struggles to make power he had to buy all of the parts that he already had that he was going to save money on. He bought, Camshaft, rockers, int manifold, carb, lifters, springs , hardware, headers, piston's ect. When he was done he wound up buying everything that he would have bought if he had purchased the 18* heads. His goal for power was met but it hit him. This is all I can get out of this. Then it hit him.... I could of had a better engine at the same cost or close to it by buying the better heads. He came to me after it was all done and said, "i should have bought the better heads to began with" as it is this is as much power as I will ever get from the 23* heads. At least if I had bought the better heads I can still make more power in the future and wouldn't have struggled so hard to make the power that he had. There are plenty of options on the market today. Imo why build a 23* engine just to turn around and build a SB2. Why even build an SB2? There are heads like the 15* or better that have bolt on parts. I'm not saying that an SB2 is a bad choice, but look at the overall cost. The biggest plus to the SB2 is the intake manifold's the biggest draw back is size and weight. Take for example, the SB2 vrs an Ls style engine. My whole purpose for this is to point out that yes you can make 700 HP or even 800 HP. But what if the day comes that you want 900? If you say to yourself well at that point I would just put a power adder on it than why don't you just do that with what you've already have. Hope it all make sense.

Joel

[mdross1]

Larry, very impressive build you have there.

" Dart Pro 1's 23 deg Heads unwelded, no epoxy"

I didn't think you could support that kind of rpm with unwelded P/rod. Is the velocity too fast though prod pinch?
Are the dart pro1s the best 23 deg head to use for the kind of build that you have listed. thanks

you can make a little more HP out of the Dart 215cc or 230cc by welding + widening pushrod pinch

unwelded at 240cc , they are about maxed out in velocity at pushrod pinch on 440cid @ 8300 RPM

the Dart Pro-1 23deg has all the metal in correct places
and i end up with a 240cc Intake port starting from either 215cc or 230cc versions.

2.125/1.600 +.200 longer valves from how they come from Dart

here's Info on Brodix Track 1's i ground the Track 1's Intake Ports into
my best Dart Pro 1 240 cc shape,
tried to turn Track 1 heads into Dart Pro 1 shapes

Dyno results->
_________________________________________________________

440cid SBC Brodix Track-1 Heads make 801 HP

Peak TQ = 595.5 @ 6500 RPM
Peak HP = 800.7 @ 8000 RPM
600 RPM/SEC

Oct 24, 2010 Chris and Buddy Valentine 4.185x4.000= 440.2 cid
Brodix Track-1 Heads STS233 2.125/1.600 max ported by Meaux
Dart Pro-1 Intake Ports ground into Track-1's to create a 240 CC Port identical to Dart Pro-1
FelPro# 1206 Int gasket
Edelbrock Super Victor 2970 w/SuperSucker 2inch
Chris Headers 2-step 2, 2 1/8 w/4 inch Collector
ProSystems Carb
Diamond 12.8 cc Domes 15:1 CR C-16 Race Fuel
Cam Motion Roller
1.80/1.80 Jesels
Billet Fab alum full kickout w/Royal Purple 10/30 breakin
GZ MotorSports Vac Pump
---------------
.025 Lash
227 cranking psi @ 16-Volts at approx 275 Cranking RPM after 10 needle pulses
35 from 38
hookup Star Vac Pump
Q-16
37 from 35 btdc
Royal Purple XPR 10/40 oil



Update : May 9, 2011 Dyno test Track 1 Intake Ports ground to Dart Pro-1 Port shapes @ 240 CC
tried something new out ... looks promising !
Peak TQ= 598.6 @ 6600 RPM
Peak HP= 807.4 @ 7900 RPM

Larry,

I thought the Pro 1s got real close to water in the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?

Thanks

No doubt big cubes will get to my goal much easier.Gotta wonder what this combination (above) would pull with street compression.Who makes an aluminum block close to the 4.185 bore?

[N20388]

If I remember correctly a Dart has a 2.160 diameter seat ring.

He will need a min of 235cc in the AFR lineup to make 700 with a 406, IMO..

I'm kind of in the same boat as the original poster should I buy new or have mine ported. What I have been wrestling with and looks like you may have confirmed is that it looks like I will get the #'s I would like to have and save a couple of $$ by buying a set of the AFR 235's. I'm getting quotes in the $1,500 + range for porting and valve job. But that doesn't include parts like larger valves and new springs, etc. which when combined could easily cost more than the 235's. Just my thoughts but I know he could get a grand or more for his current heads and I'm leaning to doing the same thing so I'm asking is there any reason that doing this would be a bad choice?

[bigjoe1]

The newer 245 AFR are better than the AFR 235 heads, and the cost the same with the spring upgrades. They cost around 2400 dollars complete. out the door


JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES

[rookie]

The newer 245 AFR are better than the AFR 235 heads, and the cost the same with the spring upgrades. They cost around 2400 dollars complete. out the door


JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES

The 245s require shaft mount rockers don’t they?

[maxracesoftware]

Larry,
I thought the Pro 1s got real close to water in the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?
Thanks--Fatman

yes the 215cc and the 230cc end up the same exact port shape at approx 240cc's in those
series of Dyno and Dragstrip tests .

i have a caliper i modified to checkout short turn thickness and other areas
and i'm pretty safe as far as thickness goes on the short turn curve

No doubt big cubes will get to my goal much easier.Gotta wonder what this combination (above) would pull with street compression.
Who makes an aluminum block close to the 4.185 bore?
--mdross1

you will spend thousands of dollars $$$$'s
to loose 20-30 HP easily with an aluminum SBC block.

take that $$$$ money and purchase better Heads/Manifold/valvetrain, Carb, etc
you will make a ton more HP ....much more HP cost effective !!!!

[Fatman]

Larry,
I thought the Pro 1s got real close to water in the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?
Thanks--Fatman

yes the 215cc and the 230cc end up the same exact port shape at approx 240cc's in those
series of Dyno and Dragstrip tests .

i have a caliper i modified to checkout short turn thickness and other areas
and i'm pretty safe as far as thickness goes on the short turn curve

No doubt big cubes will get to my goal much easier.Gotta wonder what this combination (above) would pull with street compression.
Who makes an aluminum block close to the 4.185 bore?
--mdross1

you will spend thousands of dollars $$$$'s
to loose 20-30 HP easily with an aluminum SBC block.

take that $$$$ money and purchase better Heads/Manifold/valvetrain, Carb, etc
you will make a ton more HP ....much more HP cost effective !!!!

Larry
Is the SSR water jacket limiting your port design or is the SSR where you want it with regards to shape? Do you think you could make more power with these heads if the SSr had more material to work with?

[mdross1]

Larry,
I thought the Pro 1s got real close to water in the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?
Thanks--Fatman

yes the 215cc and the 230cc end up the same exact port shape at approx 240cc's in those
series of Dyno and Dragstrip tests .

i have a caliper i modified to checkout short turn thickness and other areas
and i'm pretty safe as far as thickness goes on the short turn curve

No doubt big cubes will get to my goal much easier.Gotta wonder what this combination (above) would pull with street compression.
Who makes an aluminum block close to the 4.185 bore?
--mdross1

you will spend thousands of dollars $$$$'s
to loose 20-30 HP easily with an aluminum SBC block.

take that $$$$ money and purchase better Heads/Manifold/valvetrain, Carb, etc
you will make a ton more HP ....much more HP cost effective !!!!

Larry
Is the SSR water jacket limiting your port design or is the SSR where you want it with regards to shape? Do you think you could make more power with these heads if the SSr had more material to work with?

I hear you but in this case the 100lb savings means more than the 20/30 hp loss.This motor is going in a motorcycle,and I crave the all aluminum (polished) look.Have finally settled on a 427" short block,up in the air on SB2 topend or conventional topend that can get me close to the number.Either way the polished aluminum will all blend together.Torque is not an issue so this motor will have a wild solid roller to complement whatever topend ends up on the shortblock.The carb will be specially built for this motor as well.

[mdross1]

Was just reading about the new AFR 245 heads at 340cfm these heads are near some SB2 in flow numbers,makes me wonder what kind of numbers they could generate on a 427" with all the right stuff to make them work

[A Atwood]

What bore / stroke are you planning to run?

[A Atwood]

[quote="the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?
Thanks--Fatman

yes the 215cc and the 230cc end up the same exact port shape at approx 240cc's in those
series of Dyno and Dragstrip tests .



I hear you but in this case the 100lb savings means more than the 20/30 hp loss.This motor is going in a motorcycle,and I crave the all aluminum (polished) look.Have finally settled on a 427" short block,up in the air on SB2 topend or conventional topend that can get me close to the number.Either way the polished aluminum will all blend together.Torque is not an issue so this motor will have a wild solid roller to complement whatever topend ends up on the shortblock.The carb will be specially built for this motor as well.[/quote]

Torque loss is not the issue.
You go trying to run a very large(duration) cam in your engine, it is going to run like $hit at any type of street rpm. It will have no responsiveness at anything other than WOT and over 5000 rpm. There are tons of people that would love to do what you are thinking will work, but in the end, you will end up with a drag racing cam profile that will be miserable to ride at anything other than WOT. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Not going to work. An engine with a high rpm camshaft is miserable to operate below tq peak and even worse at less than WOT, which is where you will be most of the time. You need to re-think what you want to end up with.

ARN

[mdross1]

What bore / stroke are you planning to run?

Most blocks come with 4.125 bore plan to use 4" arm with 6" rods

[mdross1]

[quote="the ssr area when ground for max performance. Is this the case?
Do you end up with the same port shape regardless of if you start with the 215 or 230?
Thanks--Fatman

yes the 215cc and the 230cc end up the same exact port shape at approx 240cc's in those
series of Dyno and Dragstrip tests .



I hear you but in this case the 100lb savings means more than the 20/30 hp loss.This motor is going in a motorcycle,and I crave the all aluminum (polished) look.Have finally settled on a 427" short block,up in the air on SB2 topend or conventional topend that can get me close to the number.Either way the polished aluminum will all blend together.Torque is not an issue so this motor will have a wild solid roller to complement whatever topend ends up on the shortblock.The carb will be specially built for this motor as well.

Torque loss is not the issue.
You go trying to run a very large(duration) cam in your engine, it is going to run like $hit at any type of street rpm. It will have no responsiveness at anything other than WOT and over 5000 rpm. There are tons of people that would love to do what you are thinking will work, but in the end, you will end up with a drag racing cam profile that will be miserable to ride at anything other than WOT. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Not going to work. An engine with a high rpm camshaft is miserable to operate below tq peak and even worse at less than WOT, which is where you will be most of the time. You need to re-think what you want to end up with.

ARN[/quote]

I hear you,and been there done that,not again.Plan was to talk with cam people when all is right in short block.The 406 in this bike now has a .700/.660 hy roller with early AFR 210's it is very crispy and pulls like a freight train,love the sound it makes at 900rpm idle.Looking for same results in this 427"