Barton Super Stock Hemi's

[supergass]

Mhuppertz asked if the older Hemi could be competitive in Pro Stock today. I think not, in view of what it takes at present to qualify it seems out of reach to me. JMO.

I agree. It would need the bore spacing, a much shorter block, much reduced valve angles, cam raised a lot just as a starting point. By, then it wouldn't resemble a 426. Come to think of it, it would fit right in as none of the NHRA P/S engines are remotely like anything the factories put out.

THats true, and to be fair that goes for the chevy as well. If it wont rev it wont run in P/S. Its also got to be durable ......well durable enough.

[nhrastocker]

Mhuppertz asked if the older Hemi could be competitive in Pro Stock today. I think not, in view of what it takes at present to qualify it seems out of reach to me. JMO.

I agree. It would need the bore spacing, a much shorter block, much reduced valve angles, cam raised a lot just as a starting point. By, then it wouldn't resemble a 426. Come to think of it, it would fit right in as none of the NHRA P/S engines are remotely like anything the factories put out.

THats true, and to be fair that goes for the chevy as well. If it wont rev it wont run in P/S. Its also got to be durable ......well durable enough.

What do you mean by durable?
In the same fashion as Comp Eliminator engines, Pro Stock engines require lots of maintenance after every pass down the track.
Ron E can tell you how many boxes of valve springs, retainers and rocker arms you need to have on hand.

[supergass]

Well I dont mean its a bracket engine by no means but more like a valvetrain that has a lighterweight design going in its favor. It can rev and live because the design is more stable at high rpms.

[Alan Roehrich]

Allan is right Charger, the Mopar boys didnt want to see that 67 L-88 Vette compete. Chevy has won more races on the Strip, Nascar, Trans Am, Truck, Sprint Car, and Street then your old cast iron huge overweight Mopars would ever dream about. Chevy was the thing of beauty wihen that 1955-265 CI SB came out. It set the racing world upside down fella. Could rev, and stay together. And the aftermarket business really kicked in. Your Mopars came with dual carbs, big deal. Chevy still could handle them with Single carb Factory applications. Chevy had it all, looks, beauty, performance, and a cheaper car that could run and last. Great engineering. Put your opinions to rest Chargermal, your Mopars were nothing but a bunch of overweight big cars, no style, ugly looks, expensive, horrible gas mileage and even today, and needed BB Power to get them to move. You will never match Chevys SB History, or BB Chevy design and popularity.

Personally I dont blame the Hemi guys for getting those Vettes banned.

They never raced an L88 VETTE in SS and SS/A back when those cars were first running - why should they let an aerodynamically superior plastic car corrupt the idea of a NOSTALGIA class?

If the L88 was so good - the Chivvy guys shoulda run Craparos....but they didn't because they new they'd get trailered.

As far as the trash talk about how wonderful Chevy race history is.....I guess if you compete long enough and pay the right people the right money....you'll start to get a few wins on the board....over 40 years anyhow.


But lets face it...no one remembers the 427 or the 350 from the period when the Hemi was king.....even the 327 has a better rep than your Rat motors....

So you keep your speedboats and dirt track junkers for your shade tree heros...because .Real Pros ran the HEMI at the top of the tree - when legends were born....Hell...even Grumpy did it for one year!

So you keep your class wins and pro stock wins in the late 70s etc.....BUT - between 66 and 72... All the Mopar boys did was scrape Chivvy cr@p off their Super Stock , Pro Stock and Stock class shoes.

With the crap you post, you want to call anyone rude? Call me a rude SOB all you want. But when you do, you need to run to your bathroom, take off your rose colored glasses, and look in the mirror.

Wrong. Completely wrong. The 1967 L-88 Corvette was there all along. Super Stock is not a nostalgia class, once again, your complete and utter ignorance shows. And as far as the Camaro goes, someone cried over the 69 Camaro ZL-1, too and got it removed from the Stock Car Classification Guide. The ZL-1, genius, was the Camaro version of the L-88, but it was all aluminum. And it did run. Successfully. Until someone managed to cry enough to get it banned. NHRA had little choice but to bring it back, since there were 69 of them built, which is more than several of the Chrysler "paper cars" that got into the classes simply because Chrysler published a book with them in it.

It has become extremely obvious that what you know about NHRA drag racing, especially Stock Eliminator, and Super Stock, would fit loosely in a small thimble, and leave room for a herd of buffalo.

And that's enough time and effort wasted on educating a person interested only in trolling, name calling, and remaining ignorant to the end.

[supergass]

Allan is right Charger, the Mopar boys didnt want to see that 67 L-88 Vette compete. Chevy has won more races on the Strip, Nascar, Trans Am, Truck, Sprint Car, and Street then your old cast iron huge overweight Mopars would ever dream about. Chevy was the thing of beauty wihen that 1955-265 CI SB came out. It set the racing world upside down fella. Could rev, and stay together. And the aftermarket business really kicked in. Your Mopars came with dual carbs, big deal. Chevy still could handle them with Single carb Factory applications. Chevy had it all, looks, beauty, performance, and a cheaper car that could run and last. Great engineering. Put your opinions to rest Chargermal, your Mopars were nothing but a bunch of overweight big cars, no style, ugly looks, expensive, horrible gas mileage and even today, and needed BB Power to get them to move. You will never match Chevys SB History, or BB Chevy design and popularity.

Personally I dont blame the Hemi guys for getting those Vettes banned.

They never raced an L88 VETTE in SS and SS/A back when those cars were first running - why should they let an aerodynamically superior plastic car corrupt the idea of a NOSTALGIA class?

If the L88 was so good - the Chivvy guys shoulda run Craparos....but they didn't because they new they'd get trailered.

As far as the trash talk about how wonderful Chevy race history is.....I guess if you compete long enough and pay the right people the right money....you'll start to get a few wins on the board....over 40 years anyhow.


But lets face it...no one remembers the 427 or the 350 from the period when the Hemi was king.....even the 327 has a better rep than your Rat motors....

So you keep your speedboats and dirt track junkers for your shade tree heros...because .Real Pros ran the HEMI at the top of the tree - when legends were born....Hell...even Grumpy did it for one year!

So you keep your class wins and pro stock wins in the late 70s etc.....BUT - between 66 and 72... All the Mopar boys did was scrape Chivvy cr@p off their Super Stock , Pro Stock and Stock class shoes.

With the crap you post, you want to call anyone rude? Call me a rude SOB all you want. But when you do, you need to run to your bathroom, take off your rose colored glasses, and look in the mirror.

Wrong. Completely wrong. The 1967 L-88 Corvette was there all along. Super Stock is not a nostalgia class, once again, your complete and utter ignorance shows. And as far as the Camaro goes, someone cried over the 69 Camaro ZL-1, too and got it removed from the Stock Car Classification Guide. The ZL-1, genius, was the Camaro version of the L-88, but it was all aluminum. And it did run. Successfully. Until someone managed to cry enough to get it banned. NHRA had little choice but to bring it back, since there were 69 of them built, which is more than several of the Chrysler "paper cars" that got into the classes simply because Chrysler published a book with them in it.

It has become extremely obvious that what you know about NHRA drag racing, especially Stock Eliminator, and Super Stock, would fit loosely in a small thimble, and leave room for a herd of buffalo.

And that's enough time and effort wasted on educating a person interested only in trolling, name calling, and remaining ignorant to the end.

Good exclaimation point to a good thread. Like I said, at best he is nothing more than a magazine reader.

[tenxal]

Actually, when there was a "race to the eights" the Hemi Super Stock guys went to NHRA to get them to ban the 67 L-88 Corvette, because Tony Rhodes and Scott Wilcox were within less than a tenth of the fastest Super Stock Hemi cars in the country with two 67 L-88 Corvette SS/A cars based out of middle Tennessee. So, in order to keep one of those nasty little Corvettes from running an 8 second pass before they did, the Hemi boys went to NHRA and asked for the 67 L-88 Corvette to be removed from the Stock Car Classification Guide, even though it had been in there for 30 years. Since Chevrolet only documented the 36 cars they sold through dealers, and not the 70 or so of the 67 L-88 Corvettes that were either given to racers or sold through direct sales from the racing group, all of the sudden the 67 L-88 Corvette was no longer legal.

So, don't let the SS/AH guys kid you that they always had everyone beat. They didn't. They got the 67 L-88 taken out of the guide, and THEN they got their own class, so they could stretch the rules and spend a half million dollars per car in Super Stock.

And yeah, the "rules stretching" has ruined Stock Eliminator and Super Stock.

Yep. And then there was Conway Witten's excursion into the 'sacred-cow' Hemi class (SS/BA) with his LS-7 Corvette combo. Same result..been in the books for years until the Hemi goons got nervous about it's potential. I saw that car at Indy when all the SS/BA's were in the lanes for class run offs....you couldn't even see that little Corvette when it was in between '65 A990 Coronets and Belvederes. I knew the Hemis were in trouble right then and there! -tenx

[JohnsnsFord2@aol.com]

To the OP - One thing you are confused on is that NHRA / Wally Parks kept adding HP to the HEMI's and the result is they were no longer as competitive. That is true in Pro-Stock but in the same context you keep referring to Super Stock. HP has been added to the '68 HEMI (which is the engine in the context you are talking about), but it wasn't enough to put them out of the Super Stock business; which is what happened in Pro-Stock.

To Allan - Your right on an all aspects of the HEMI and the L88's. And it's a shame the L-88's are not allowed. In this day and age, so what if only 36 can be documented?
What your not mentioning (by design? or not knowing?) is a SS/AH racer that is aligned with a team spent (I believe) $1,000,00 or was it half that? in luring a top NASCAR engine builder to apply all the NASCAR tricks to the Gen II Hemi. And I'll just keep names out of it but be assured it is real. This is a hugely ego driven class for sure.
And now that they run the sticks and auto's together on the same HP, the stick cars are pretty tough to beat. As you know, some of these cars have been in the 8-teens in testing.

And somebody mentioned a page back about SS/B and Paul Adams. Fast Thunderbolt but has been on the losing side in heads up runs against that pesky '69 AMX of Adkins lately. No predictions but SS/B at Indy will be a fun one this year!

Back on the Hemi, my engine builder, who I think is pretty damn smart machinist, just finished a '64 single 4bbl NASCAR Hemi for a customer (A/SA NHRA class). Started with a raw block. I think the build issues of that Hemi in pursuit of every HP that could be found (or made), about gave him a stroke! The engine is in the car right now, just waiting for a cool day for testing. I suspect it will be as fast if not faster than the rest of the (small) crowd. To the OP, yea, Hemi's are impressive...but cheap is not their name either.

That lil AMX is bad to the bone!! He has helped us out alot in the past ...awesome car and driver

[JohnsnsFord2@aol.com]

If Jimmy Bridges is on his game, SS/B will get real interesting. One of these days, he's going to put my jockey in that white Corvette, and rent the track for a day to test. If we had not hurt my 396 on the dyno, I would already have rented the track. I will not make Bowling Green or Indy, but I will be back.

Funny, Jimmy Bridges was the engine builder for both of those L-88 Corvettes that made everyone with a Hemi so nervous.

Alan I didnt know that jimmy was the one that ran off the hemis lol..I agree he has that car flying.. all of the B cars can beat each other at any given time...

[JohnsnsFord2@aol.com]

I mean wouldnt it be awesome to see a class with Chevy Chrysler and Ford with 427 cars and multiple carbs running? That would be intertainment for sure. I would even like to see what a old FE Ford could do in that class.

SS/B at INDY is where you need to be

[Alan Roehrich]

If Jimmy Bridges is on his game, SS/B will get real interesting. One of these days, he's going to put my jockey in that white Corvette, and rent the track for a day to test. If we had not hurt my 396 on the dyno, I would already have rented the track. I will not make Bowling Green or Indy, but I will be back.

Funny, Jimmy Bridges was the engine builder for both of those L-88 Corvettes that made everyone with a Hemi so nervous.

Alan I didnt know that jimmy was the one that ran off the hemis lol..I agree he has that car flying.. all of the B cars can beat each other at any given time...

Yes, not only was Jimmy building engines for Scott Wilcox and Tony Rhodes (McKeon also built one for Rhodes I think, I'd have to ask Jimmy) but Jimmy bought Scott's Corvette from Noel Davis, and that is the white Corvette Jimmy will race at Bowling Green this weekend, and Indy next weekend, in SS/B.

Unfortunately, Marvin the Martian, the green 69 Camaro SS/EA car owned by Scot LaMar, and driven by Kevin Cradduck, will not be racing at either race. Due to a problem with some work we had done else where, we had a problem with out Bridge's Performance / QuarterFlash MotorSports 396, and despite my efforts and Jimmy's, we cannot get it back together in time. Maybe a couple of weeks after Indy. Jimmy wants me to put a 4 speed in it!

Maybe we'll see you and your Dad later this year.

[Jeff Lee]

With 7 cars registered for SS/B @ Indy, it will be the class to watch along with SS/AH. Nothing sounds better than a pair of '68 Hemi A-bodies at mid-track but I do like the variety of the multi carb entrants in SS/B.

[Alan Roehrich]

With 7 cars registered for SS/B @ Indy, it will be the class to watch along with SS/AH. Nothing sounds better than a pair of '68 Hemi A-bodies at mid-track but I do like the variety of the multi carb entrants in SS/B.

It's going to be a great class. I hope everyone can make clean runs. I may try to make it up. As my buddy Tim Cole said the other day, I need a dose of racing adrenaline, after the struggle of the last couple of years, I'm almost disinterested.

[JohnsnsFord2@aol.com]

Alan,

Jimmy's old SS/E car is suppose to make a debut this fall....its back in the southeast area again..
Come on up north and get some of that c25 fumes in your nose... hope to see ya at INDY

[levisnteeshirt]

Comparing engines by race results is crazy anyhow - different manufacturers put different amounts of time, development and money into there products...Mopars FAILED in Trans Am for this reason...the years that GM and Ford spent developing their race programs before 1970 to,d the story....

But if you compare similar products " as released" - the inadequacies of the L48 350 soon become obvious.

68 340 Dart - Qtr mile tested - 14.4
68 Craparo SS350 - 15.2

Lets look at the L48 350 compared to the LA340...

L48 - Cast crank, puny rods, pedestal rockers, 1.94 i take valve, 1.55 rod/stroke ratio (bore wear anyone?), tiny exhaust ports, press in oil pump tube, gear drive dist

LA340 - Forged steel crank,, 2.02 intake valve, 1.81 rod/stroke, shaft rockers, stonger rods, larger exhaust ports, threaded oil pump tube, slot mount dist shaft ( reduced wear, zero breakage factor)

Granted - From 1970 the LT1 was a better motor but that really only brought it into line with the LA 340 and the 351 Cleveland.

i guess you never saw a fuel injected factory 327 in a vette ,,, i doubt any 340 had a snow balls chance in hell against that , in what ,, 1963 ? 375 hp , under rated of course ,, all chevies were

[wyrmrider]

I built a motor for my late cousin Bob's factory Nova 327 FI 4 speed car
I love MOPAR but good luck 340
(unless you wanted to take some curves- then the NOVA and similar Mustang took a lot of work to rid bump steer)