4412 best/worst intakes , carbs , heads etc

[madcowl]

i'm new here , and new to 2bbl stuff too . just typed in a search and came across several good posts by the experts . i was blown away to see one man i always had respect for , joe sherman , posting on here .
i am in michgan , had grown up in so. cal and remember seeing joe's nova at "orange county international raceway " way back in the day . if i recall correctly it was a 74 to 79 type nova with round holes cut into the front for air or lightening . that car was flyin' for the day , everyone talked about sherman in the inland empire where i lived . i used to drag race for many years and remember lots of cars powered by joe's engines at terminal island's brotherhood raceway in around 1995-6? i moved back to michigan in 1997 , and played a little with the drag stuff here but hated waiting half a day for 1 pass to sit in the sun for hours again for another .
my bro had always wanted to do a dirt track car and we grew up out west watching them at ascot park , and corona raceway , even perris speedway (the old motorcyle track ! )
we started a couple years ago in the dirt car , didn't have a clue what to do , had enough power but couldn't drive it right since we had the set up all wrong . since then i've learned the basics , and had the car fairly competitive and the rules changed moving us up into the next class (didn't want to build another car to move down with the rougher drivers ) and requiring a gauge legal 4412 carb . we can run any alum or cast intake , any cast iron heads , cast iron block , no roller cams , stick or auto , any rear gears , floater rears allowed . 3200 lbs min.

sorry for the long babbling intro :
my question is regarding the 4412 stuff , i have the victor jr. tall 2bbl intake , and a stock 4412 carb , 1-3/4" primary shoenfeld headers , shoenfeld shorty 3-1/2" mufflers. the engine for now is a 350+ .040 , 13.5 to 1 claimer pistons , sir rods , stock steel crank , box stock 200 cc dart iron eagles , 2bbl isky cam #201534 (reccomended by a local machine shop ) , 1.5 comp roller rockers , we are now going powerglide (direct drive ) no phoney converter , just a coupler to reduce weight and inertia . we run hoosier e-mod tires and a 6.50 rear gear . the car hopefully weighs around 3300 lbs now with the last diet we gave it . engine isn't ready so not scaled yet .

does the 2bbl victor intake work better than a 4 bbl version with a nice adapter ? we can run a 1" spacer max
i have a set of 230cc iron eagles for our old 4bbl engine , are they too big for a 2bbl , even on a 406 ?
i have a world products motown 4500 series intake from that engine , could it be used with an adapter ? anyone tried the 4500 intakes with adapters ?

i had my 1050 dominator from my drag car on the old 406 for one night the prior season before the rule changes and it worked great !
i was sick to hear the 2bbl rule , all it did was cost us all a bunch of money for more compression and trying to lighten everyhting even more than before .

anyone try a 2bbl on a torklink intake ?

so i also know lots of the competitors are buying big$ carbs that are supposed to be gauge legal . i cant spend a ton but would like to know who's legal 2bbl makes the best power and what do they cost ?

sorry again for such a long post , just looking to pick your brains ! ted evans , ravenna , mi.
you can see some of my drag car stuff on youtube and a ton of dirt movies i filmed , along with our own car movie , the hella 57 chevy my name there is madcowl also . thanks

[bigjoe1]

I have done lots of testing on the 4412 carbs over the years. One interesting fact-- I ran about ten different carbs ( all 4412 ) on the same motor== The HP varied over 20 Hp, from carbs that were all supposed to be exactly the same= The Edelbrock vic jr 2 bbl was the best manifold we found.There is some real speed secrets in the power valves on the 4412 carbs


JOE SHERMAN RACING

[madcowl]

i sent you a pm joe .

so over a stock 4412 there isn't a giant gain like the 50 to 70 hp claims i hear around the track ?
i had serious doubts when i heard that stuff but i'm sure the ones they talk about aren't legal anyways .

glad the victor 2bbl intake is the good choice though

[bigjoe1]

The expensive carbs SOUNDED BETTER, they were much sharper and chriper and so forth ( for 1400 dollars ) but the HP was just about at same as a stock carb with the correct jets.None of the four barrel manifolds madfe as much HPO as the 2 barrel vic jr,


JOE SHERMAN RACING

[DaveMcLain]

If you can run the Victor 2V it's the way to go. The difference between a good stock 4412 and a very good "built" but tech legal 4412 can be about 15 horsepower. But that can be misleading because what you'll find is that you can change the jetting on the stocker and make it equal the torque OR horsepower of the built carburetor but it won't do both without a rework to get the fuel curve in shape. Off idle characteristics and part throttle drivability can be vastly improved over the stock carburetor. This should not be terribly expensive just depending upon the rules and how the carburetors are teched for legality. You will not see a difference of 70 horsepower even if you're comparing something very good to complete junk. I can tell you that you can see over 30 horsepower between a terrible and a good intake and some are very bad with a two barrel.

[900HP]

I'm not going to knock anybody's carb. What I can say is that we have dyno'd over 50 different 2bbl carbs from various manufacturers and customers. Without going into great detail why I will say that BLP has the 2bbl program to beat right now. Not only that, but the power is consistant from carb to carb meaning that it isn't a crap-shoot if you get a good one or a bad one. They will test gauge legal for any sanctioning body. They even went WAAAAAaay out of their way to help us with an issue we were having with Wissota (sanctioning body run by morons). The BLP's we have tested have always out powered any other 2 bbl carb we have tried and the throttle response and drivability (throttle control off the corner) is excellent.

Call Joe at BLP (Bo Laws Performance) the number is 800-624-1358 they sell for between $700 and $800 depending upon the model and are worth every penny

[MaxFlow]

I agree. BLP is the 2 barrell at this time.

[Chris29]

Interesting about the 2v victor jr.The sanctioning body made this 2v the spec intake so We did back to back testing on an engine we built RHS vortec heads, the 2v made 14 less hp than a super victor 4bll with adapter.Nothing we did, various spacers,timing,jets,cam timing could get that power back.average hp was also down 7 hp.

[BigBro74]

what are some of the WORST intakes you guys have seen with that particular carb?
Big joe? Dave?

[madcowl]

chris 29 , this is what i like to hear about , i have heard good things about the 2bbl intake for years , even before we tried the dirt track stuff . i used to see them for sale at the long beach & pomona swap meets all the time and wondered how they performed .

i ran our 2bbl intake for 1 race and 2 test and tunes before the oil pickup broke ending the playing for a while but the car ran pretty decent . i didn't try any other combo but wondered about others trying different intakes . the super victor is probably somewhat similiar to my motown intake but mine is for a dominator , any horror stories of trying the 2bbl adapted to a 4500 intake ? it does have the dividers extended into the plenum which may be bad with a 2bbl ?

also , "ANYONE" played with a torklink ? good , bad , bitchin , waste of time ? just wondering who knows how they perform ?

[zeuli77]

Joe
can you explain more about the more power found with the power valve on the 4412.
thanks
Frank

[DaveMcLain]

Many 4412 packages are designed to close the power valve at high rpm. This is done to pull out fuel and keep the carburetor from getting too rich on top yet still have enough fuel to make proper torque at lower rpm. This happens because as the engine revs against the restriction of the carburetor manifold vacuum can increase to a fairly high value and higher than the rating of the power valve which most of the time is around a 4.5. This can help power in the last few hundred rpm of operation beyond peak but it doesn't have much of an effect at the horsepower peak itself which will happen at or around 6200rpm on a 350 inch engine.

Worst intake that I've tested, Weiand, Accelerator, tall version has sucked for me with a 4412.

[Chris29]

Madcowl, we used the canton adjustable carb spacer and just moved the carb position till we found it's happy spot.

[BigBro74]

if changing from the IMCA 7547 weiand spec manifold and 1'' open spacer with an adapter and 4412 on top to something like a 2925 eddy, whould the difference be profound? my guess would be yes, but no data to back up.
Dave, you were talking the 7546?
Jason

[Rick1999]

i sent you a pm joe .

so over a stock 4412 there isn't a giant gain like the 50 to 70 hp claims i hear around the track ?
i had serious doubts when i heard that stuff but i'm sure the ones they talk about aren't legal anyways .

glad the victor 2bbl intake is the good choice though

If it's a gauge legal carb that number is high but the more power potential
your engine has, the more gain you will see from a good carb. IE a street stock that 300HP might pick up 5 or 10 HP over a goodrunning stocker, but an engine like yours that should be close to 500HP should probably see around 15-20. By the way,a good carb builder would not build the same carb for the 2 engine examples I listed.