brodix 11x vs. afr235 dyno test

[MaxFlow]

brodix 11x v/s afr 235 and 60hp. Sure its real world. Should be.

Now the pissin' match about AFR? See no reason for it. Are they a reasonable head for the money? Sure. Are they the best out there for the $? Just depends on the application.

[sanfordandson]

i noticed there are alot of ladies on this site now that get butt hurt quite easily. if your patient enough, you can weed through the salesmen and crybabies and find good useful info from some damn smart people.

[randy331]

The meat and potato's is what seperates cylinder heads...

I thought that's what seperates appetizers from desert?

Randy

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

All I can add is I just recently flowed a AFR 235cc. Yes, it does flow a ton of air. If your after a flow number, you'll be happy. The meat and potato's is what seperates cylinder heads...

No offense but I think the "meat and potatoes" were served up rather well with a significant gain in power and torque over a high quality aftermarket head that flowed over 300 CFM (this head wasn't some lame duck that these types of gains would have been easy to come by). We are talking serious power improvements here folks.

Sure...its not Brodix's latest and greatest and they produce other heads that would have surely been a better match up but lets not quickly snub our nose at these types of gains.

Chad, I read your posts on the various message boards and it seems to me the biggest problem you have with our heads is they dont meet your particular notions of what's important in head design versus what's not so important (and we all have our opinions and particular ways we approach things), but they do more than just flow alot of air....they convert all this air pretty damn effectively into horsepower and torque. This thread is just yet another independent result that proves exactly that. How do you argue with the numerous 725-750 HP combinations out there (and not all built by professional engine builders), and while some would like to make you think its a walk in the park to achieve that type of number, I assure you it certainly is not on an honest dyno in a non raised runner bolt on head that requires nothing more than an inexpensive .050 offset studmount rocker arm to work properly (some guys even run regular straight rocker arms with good results but the geometry isn't as "pretty")

Everyone and every company has their particular way of doing things and we may have different reasons for doing what we do and building/designing a particular head they way we have....but we have alot invested in every product we produce and there is a method to our madness I assure you. For the money, like it or not, the AFR head delivers and usually with above average results.

And I'm not saying we are the only company that can.....in fact there are a host of other talented individuals and companies out there that can (many of whom are on this board), but Jesus does every AFR thread have to turn into a trainwreck of varied proportions....its getting kind of old for some of the readers Im sure as well.

C'mon guys.....lighten up and maybe give a little credit when its due....it wouldn't kill ya...might even help in some regards....LOL

I probably ought to have bit my tongue but I decided to post and I hope what I said came across the way I meant it.

Anyway....OP....nice results and for the record guys I had no clue this swap was even taking place till I read about it an hour or two ago

Just realized the time....I need to get home....I have an engine I need to continue working on

Cheers,
Tony

[Orr89rocz]

I stand corrected I made the assumption the heads where strait from brodix these did have some cnc port matching maybe 3/4" into the port. Both heads were flowed on my bench the 11x flowed 301 @ .700, the afr were 322@ .700. The reason for the change to afr is I only payed $1850 from summit on there Christmas

Looks to me like the heads were not box stock and actually ported alittle. 21 cfm difference and 58hp....2.76hp/cfm. Doesnt seem to bad to me. I'm sure more work on the 11x's would have produced better results but I dont see why alot of people are upset about this?

[CamKing]

Whenever you want to see a huge power gain in a head swap, start with a big inch engine, with too big of a cam in it.
The engine is so restricted, that any head with a bigger port will make a huge jump in power. It'll also move peak power up in RPM.

According to their websites:
The unported 11X is 225cc's and flows 272/184@.500".
The AFR 235 is 235cc's and flows 305/235@.500".
I would hope the AFR would make a ton more power on that combo.

[PWMAX]

It should make more power, thats a no brainer. However, for half the money of the new heads, he could have had the existing heads creatively re-worked and picked up the power the same amount. 12 years ago, I made 730hp with 434 inch sbc with World Sportsman 2's. They were far from OTB obviously, but, the point is, its possible. One 406 recently I freshened and jazzed up, made 645hp the way it was delivered. It was a Bracket/Super Gas deal, in a light weight chassis. At some tracks, and in crappy air at the bad tracks, he was only a few tenths below the 9.90 index, so, he needed more power.

It had Brodix track 1's that were "fully" ported by another shop. I flowed em, probed em, measured em, etc, and re-"fully" ported them, changed the valve job, frehsned the engine, hone, new rings, bearings, springs, etc, basic frehsen. Re-dynoed, it made 705hp. Car would easily run under at any track he went to, and he was very happy. Another one was a 540 with AFR 357's, only change was creative re-working. Car went .25 and 4 mph faster, and, I didn;t really get that carried away, some porting, and detail work, and a different valve job. For $800, the guy was STOKED, to say the least. Another one was a 598 with Dart 355's. Obviously the heads were to small. I went after those ones pretty well, bigger intake valve, valve job, and porting, it picked up 93 hp. He was thinking of buying head hunters, for $4K, I told him. I basicaly said, have me do your heads, if it doesn't pick up, I will give your money back. Needless to say, he was very happy he saved $2500, and more than picked up where he wanted to be. Basicaly, I saved him the differnce of what it would have cost him for gas for the season, or, all his enetry fees. He was tickled.

Point is, there are literlay hundreds of thousands of sets of heads out there, that can be improved to run with, or beat, all these new heads, with creative porting, and re-working. Guys have seemed to forget that, because of the aggressive advertising and marketing for these new heads. Obviously, if these big head companies didn't keep selling heads, they would be out of buisiness. And, believe it or not, the magazines are in on the whole deal, as the big head companies, spend tons of money on adds, and the magazines articles, bend the reader the way the head companies want them to go. They have "programmed" the masses. Just because its cnc's, doesn't mean it can't be improved, or because it isn't cnc's, it won't run. Keep that in mind guys.

[user-9274568]

You know I’ve debated on weather or not I should respond. However, I’m the person who was foolish enough to talk about AFR.

With that said, my stuff will ALWAYS be compared to AFR. As will Brodix, Dart, Trick Flow, Patroit, Pro-Comp, RHS, or any other 23º cylinder head. Why? Well, marketing for one. AFR is in every major magazine (even People ). Every magazine article is AFR equipped, and the price point is perfect for a budget minded racer. I applaud them, nice job..

The forums people have accused me of being arrogant, cocky, unprofessional, anything you can think of. Die hard AFR guys have called me names, called me out, run me over the coals. Because my product is being compared, or I tell people about mine, and I catch grief. But that’s OK! For every internet expert, internet asshole, I get phone calls thanking me daily!

Now “MY” notions on a cylinder head. Sorry Tony, I’m not the only head porter in the country that thinks this way. I might be the only one who talks about it, but I welcome anyone out there in virtual land to come to my shop and I’ll show you the differences. A full tilt boogie bad ass head is miles away from the AFR approach. FACT.

I’ve never questioned Tony, the head porter/designer. I have AFR the company. IMO, flat out marketing lies. Plus, there are light years difference between a 227cc and the 235cc head, that’s what it’s about growing in development!

So the bottom line. I might have been a little harsh on AFR. As are your die hard followers on me. There are difference, and I have every right to point them out. At the end of the day the scenario is like this. A guy buys a AFR head and builds an engine. It makes good power, he happy as hell for the dollar spent. He’s NOT happy and sends them to a guy like myself. I fix them up and he goes faster. However just about every porter has their own product, and I personally think mine is better. Seems a guy is spending more money, when he could have saved money in the end.

Now proof. I have reworked many AFR heads. I keep hearing this story about making it bigger, making it for their combo. That’s BS! We are talking a 23º Chevy head here. Two heads and game over. Two heads will fit every SBC ever built! I see a dyno pull of 1.69 hp/cid, and I throw up one that makes 1.83 hp/cid and I’m the bully. Go figure..

With that said, I’m dropping out of the AFR debate. I have dyno sheets from my 227cc vs a AFR 227cc but don’t have the desire, perhaps balls, to post it up. I come off like the bully, arrogant, cocky, whatever word you want to use. I’m tired, I paved the way, I will go down it. However, it’s time to change directions..

With all this said, I have a new set of AFR235cc heads here. Upgraded springs, TY retainers, $2000 plus shipping. I had a dyno session in place and I was going to back to back them vs my RHS. However, I’m just going to forget that and let people buy what they want!

[new engine builder]

You know I’ve debated on weather or not I should respond. However, I’m the person who was foolish enough to talk about AFR.

With that said, my stuff will ALWAYS be compared to AFR. As will Brodix, Dart, Trick Flow, Patroit, Pro-Comp, RHS, or any other 23º cylinder head. Why? Well, marketing for one. AFR is in every major magazine (even People ). Every magazine article is AFR equipped, and the price point is perfect for a budget minded racer. I applaud them, nice job..

The forums people have accused me of being arrogant, cocky, unprofessional, anything you can think of. Die hard AFR guys have called me names, called me out, run me over the coals. Because my product is being compared, or I tell people about mine, and I catch grief. But that’s OK! For every internet expert, internet asshole, I get phone calls thanking me daily!

Now “MY” notions on a cylinder head. Sorry Tony, I’m not the only head porter in the country that thinks this way. I might be the only one who talks about it, but I welcome anyone out there in virtual land to come to my shop and I’ll show you the differences. A full tilt boogie bad ass head is miles away from the AFR approach. FACT.

I’ve never questioned Tony, the head porter/designer. I have AFR the company. IMO, flat out marketing lies. Plus, there are light years difference between a 227cc and the 235cc head, that’s what it’s about growing in development!

So the bottom line. I might have been a little harsh on AFR. As are your die hard followers on me. There are difference, and I have every right to point them out. At the end of the day the scenario is like this. A guy buys a AFR head and builds an engine. It makes good power, he happy as hell for the dollar spent. He’s NOT happy and sends them to a guy like myself. I fix them up and he goes faster. However just about every porter has their own product, and I personally think mine is better. Seems a guy is spending more money, when he could have saved money in the end.

Now proof. I have reworked many AFR heads. I keep hearing this story about making it bigger, making it for their combo. That’s BS! We are talking a 23º Chevy head here. Two heads and game over. Two heads will fit every SBC ever built! I see a dyno pull of 1.69 hp/cid, and I throw up one that makes 1.83 hp/cid and I’m the bully. Go figure..

With that said, I’m dropping out of the AFR debate. I have dyno sheets from my 227cc vs a AFR 227cc but don’t have the desire, perhaps balls, to post it up. I come off like the bully, arrogant, cocky, whatever word you want to use. I’m tired, I paved the way, I will go down it. However, it’s time to change directions..

With all this said, I have a new set of AFR235cc heads here. Upgraded springs, TY retainers, $2000 plus shipping. I had a dyno session in place and I was going to back to back them vs my RHS. However, I’m just going to forget that and let people buy what they want!

Chad,I don't know of anyone on here that does not respect you and what you have done.
I for one would love to see the dyno tests of your 227cc heads vs. the AFR 227 cc heads.

[farmer]

"Whenever you want to see a huge power gain in a head swap, start with a big inch engine, with too big of a cam in it.
The engine is so restricted, that any head with a bigger port will make a huge jump in power. It'll also move peak power up in RPM."

Cam is 278- .682 in , 288- .682 ex I didn't chose the cam thats what Shafiroff installed. I have know idea if you consider it to big The power peak didn't move up so I am guessing its not.

I don't get the attitude of some of the professionals on here, I thank Weingartner Racing for filling me in a little bit. I looked at your web site and we have much in common I am just a farmer my passion is racing I have been racing and building engines for thirty five years , I grow apples maybe if someone said they grew better apples then me with no basis I would understand. So it's your living and I don't mean to threaten that I have great admiration for those that had the guts to turn there passion into a business I never had the guts to do that. I race a lot I have five drag cars and two stock cars some are built to a very high standard and some are put together with whats left over,I help a lot of people race none of the people that drive for me could race on there own because of there circumstances it's my nature to be helpful so I don't understand the attitude. I have lurked on this site for years and have learned a great deal I posted my test to be helpful and to give back a little of what i have taken. I posted here instead of yellowbullshit because you guys seemed more reasonable I hope you don't prove me wrong.

[dfree383]

All I can add is I just recently flowed a AFR 235cc. Yes, it does flow a ton of air. If your after a flow number, you'll be happy. The meat and potato's is what seperates cylinder heads...

No offense but I think the "meat and potatoes" were served up rather well with a significant gain in power and torque over a high quality aftermarket head that flowed over 300 CFM (this head wasn't some lame duck that these types of gains would have been easy to come by). We are talking serious power improvements here folks.

Sure...its not Brodix's latest and greatest and they produce other heads that would have surely been a better match up but lets not quickly snub our nose at these types of gains.

Chad, I read your posts on the various message boards and it seems to me the biggest problem you have with our heads is they dont meet your particular notions of what's important in head design versus what's not so important (and we all have our opinions and particular ways we approach things), but they do more than just flow alot of air....they convert all this air pretty damn effectively into horsepower and torque. This thread is just yet another independent result that proves exactly that. How do you argue with the numerous 725-750 HP combinations out there (and not all built by professional engine builders), and while some would like to make you think its a walk in the park to achieve that type of number, I assure you it certainly is not on an honest dyno in a non raised runner bolt on head that requires nothing more than an inexpensive .050 offset studmount rocker arm to work properly (some guys even run regular straight rocker arms with good results but the geometry isn't as "pretty")

Everyone and every company has their particular way of doing things and we may have different reasons for doing what we do and building/designing a particular head they way we have....but we have alot invested in every product we produce and there is a method to our madness I assure you. For the money, like it or not, the AFR head delivers and usually with above average results.

And I'm not saying we are the only company that can.....in fact there are a host of other talented individuals and companies out there that can (many of whom are on this board), but Jesus does every AFR thread have to turn into a trainwreck of varied proportions....its getting kind of old for some of the readers Im sure as well.

C'mon guys.....lighten up and maybe give a little credit when its due....it wouldn't kill ya...might even help in some regards....LOL

I probably ought to have bit my tongue but I decided to post and I hope what I said came across the way I meant it.

Anyway....OP....nice results and for the record guys I had no clue this swap was even taking place till I read about it an hour or two ago

Just realized the time....I need to get home....I have an engine I need to continue working on

Cheers,
Tony

Nice "Above Average" Sales Job Tony........... Its tough to beat up on 20+ year old heads......

[user-9274568]

You know I’ve debated on weather or not I should respond. However, I’m the person who was foolish enough to talk about AFR.

With that said, my stuff will ALWAYS be compared to AFR. As will Brodix, Dart, Trick Flow, Patroit, Pro-Comp, RHS, or any other 23º cylinder head. Why? Well, marketing for one. AFR is in every major magazine (even People ). Every magazine article is AFR equipped, and the price point is perfect for a budget minded racer. I applaud them, nice job..

The forums people have accused me of being arrogant, cocky, unprofessional, anything you can think of. Die hard AFR guys have called me names, called me out, run me over the coals. Because my product is being compared, or I tell people about mine, and I catch grief. But that’s OK! For every internet expert, internet asshole, I get phone calls thanking me daily!

Now “MY” notions on a cylinder head. Sorry Tony, I’m not the only head porter in the country that thinks this way. I might be the only one who talks about it, but I welcome anyone out there in virtual land to come to my shop and I’ll show you the differences. A full tilt boogie bad ass head is miles away from the AFR approach. FACT.

I’ve never questioned Tony, the head porter/designer. I have AFR the company. IMO, flat out marketing lies. Plus, there are light years difference between a 227cc and the 235cc head, that’s what it’s about growing in development!

So the bottom line. I might have been a little harsh on AFR. As are your die hard followers on me. There are difference, and I have every right to point them out. At the end of the day the scenario is like this. A guy buys a AFR head and builds an engine. It makes good power, he happy as hell for the dollar spent. He’s NOT happy and sends them to a guy like myself. I fix them up and he goes faster. However just about every porter has their own product, and I personally think mine is better. Seems a guy is spending more money, when he could have saved money in the end.

Now proof. I have reworked many AFR heads. I keep hearing this story about making it bigger, making it for their combo. That’s BS! We are talking a 23º Chevy head here. Two heads and game over. Two heads will fit every SBC ever built! I see a dyno pull of 1.69 hp/cid, and I throw up one that makes 1.83 hp/cid and I’m the bully. Go figure..

With that said, I’m dropping out of the AFR debate. I have dyno sheets from my 227cc vs a AFR 227cc but don’t have the desire, perhaps balls, to post it up. I come off like the bully, arrogant, cocky, whatever word you want to use. I’m tired, I paved the way, I will go down it. However, it’s time to change directions..

With all this said, I have a new set of AFR235cc heads here. Upgraded springs, TY retainers, $2000 plus shipping. I had a dyno session in place and I was going to back to back them vs my RHS. However, I’m just going to forget that and let people buy what they want!

Chad,I don't know of anyone on here that does not respect you and what you have done.
I for one would love to see the dyno tests of your 227cc heads vs. the AFR 227 cc heads.

Thanks ENB! If I do post it, it will be on my web site and my forum. However, that's not to say the person whom did it can't

[WeingartnerRacing]

Tony

I think it is sad that every time someone posts something about your product you get raked over the coals. You know if you just ported on your own and developed your heads you would get more respect and praise but since you work for AFR you have to catch hell. I also think you and Chad would probably be good friends if you were not working for AFR. I admire you posting on forums and giving good support of your product.

[swatson454]

Tony

I think it is sad that every time someone posts something about your product you get raked over the coals. You know if you just ported on your own and developed your heads you would get more respect and praise but since you work for AFR you have to catch hell. I also think you and Chad would probably be good friends if you were not working for AFR. I admire you posting on forums and giving good support of your product.

X2

[plovett]

The original post stated what was being compared and what the results were. Good info IMO.

I'd punch a nun in the face to get AFR heads made for my engine family (Ford FE).

JMO,

paulie