main bolt to stud, line hone?

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Kevin Johnson
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

Wolfplace wrote:
falcongeorge wrote:
Wolfplace wrote:
The bolts or studs do not have anything to do with location they just clamp the cap
:mrgreen:
So then why would you need to align hone the block when you changed to studs?? just asking...
Because they are clamping the caps tighter which may distort them differently
Change your bolt torque by 10 lbs or so sometime I see what happens :wink:

And another point on the studs which was brought up above about them not being necked down is many times you do need to open the holes for them
You do not want the studs influencing or interfering with the registers or dowels whichever the case may be with regard to cap alignment
I was visiting with Kevin Willis this morning (Auto Performance Engines in Auburndale, FL) and suddenly thought to ask him about this as we were admiring a Dart block. He said that if you thread studs in until they contact the shank or unthreaded body they will have a slight cant to them. Is this what you are referring to? This might not mean the stud will contact the interior of the hole in the cap but it certainly means the force applied will not be square and even and this would encourage the rocking/movement/fretting.

Kevin said that he thought it was mentioned in either the ARP catalog or the literature provided with the studs that they should be screwed in till fully seated and then backed out a bit for this reason.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:24 pm

mbrooks wrote:you guys making the assumption that with bolts the caps don't move at all, what if they lift enough that they don't fret, with the studs there is enough clamping force that they will fret.
Question part A: Is fretting caused by axial torque from the flexing crankshaft ? Part B: Is this causing the cap to rock or slide or both ?

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by falcongeorge » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:32 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
mbrooks wrote:you guys making the assumption that with bolts the caps don't move at all, what if they lift enough that they don't fret, with the studs there is enough clamping force that they will fret.
Question part A: Is fretting caused by axial torque from the flexing crankshaft ? Part B: Is this causing the cap to rock or slide or both ?
This pertains to my response to Impaler427 aka Bob, as to the crank having one short throw being the likely cause of the fretting/odd bearing wear/loss of register we saw in in his studded, 2-bolt main 427, rather than the studs themselves.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by JBV-HEADS » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:45 pm

Robert,

the most common cause on the bearing shell micro welding is the bearing is a little too wide and can hit a very wide radius on the crank journal. You will not see it on setup unless you push the rod over and turn the crank. You will see a very faint line on the journal when you remove the rod. You will only touch by about a couple of thousandths but it will touch at rpm. That is by far the most common I have seen. Good luck.

I back out studs because that is the way I was taught. Now it looks like I know why, thanks.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Wolfplace » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:52 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote: I was visiting with Kevin Willis this morning (Auto Performance Engines in Auburndale, FL) and suddenly thought to ask him about this as we were admiring a Dart block. He said that if you thread studs in until they contact the shank or unthreaded body they will have a slight cant to them. Is this what you are referring to? This might not mean the stud will contact the interior of the hole in the cap but it certainly means the force applied will not be square and even and this would encourage the rocking/movement/fretting.

Kevin said that he thought it was mentioned in either the ARP catalog or the literature provided with the studs that they should be screwed in till fully seated and then backed out a bit for this reason.
The Darts are usually not a problem with regard to installing studs
It is the stock blocks that may need the holes enlarged so you don't interfer with cap location

You are correct, you do not bottom the studs you screw them in to the bottom & back them off a little unless you have studs like Brodix with the "bullet" on the bottom or you modify the ARP per Darts instructions for head studs so they center from the bottom of the drilled hole & not the bottom of the threads

Back to the original question for a minute
If you take a block be it Dart or whatever including stock & change the bolts to studs or a different bolt or even just change the torque on the stock bolts there is a very good chance that the hole will change size

With Dart we have found that many times just breaking them down & retorquing MAY change the hole size
With any block if you machine the caps for align honing (or boring) & torque them

Again we have found that breaking them down after a couple of strokes & retorquing them will in SOME CASES change the bore
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by 427Impaler » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:07 pm

I have to thank falcongeorge for turning me on to this forum. This is the kind of discussion I have been looking for on the web. Awesome. I am just a dedicated hobbyist but I really appreciate the technical aspect of the hobby.

I still think the stock bolts provide a stretching cushion for the crankshaft harmonics, detonation, clutch shake, etc. As mbrooks stated, this stretch might be just enough to relieve the parting line tension and prevent the fretting seen by some with studs. This deflection of the bolts may be slight enough to not produce any noticeable negative effects, until the harmonics reached a more destructive level and caused parts failure. It is indeed an interesting riddle either way.

PS falcongeorge: That old ratty 427 is still alive and well living somewhere in northern BC :shock:

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by af2 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:52 pm

427Impaler wrote:until the harmonics reached a more destructive level and caused parts failure. It is indeed an interesting riddle either way.

Harmonics have to be a major contributor. After seeing quite a few sprint engines without balancers taken apart it is pretty crazy the amount of fretting on the mains. Both bearing and caps.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by colormebad » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:26 pm

And i call a Dumb@ss a dum@ss ....You your 1 dumb sumbytch.... :lol:

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by swatson454 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:48 pm

colormebad wrote:And i call a Dumb@ss a dum@ss ....You your 1 dumb sumbytch.... :lol:
Come on dude, seek your entertainment elsewhere. With a few exceptions, this is a very informative thread.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by af2 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:59 pm

swatson454 wrote:
colormebad wrote:And i call a Dumb@ss a dum@ss ....You your 1 dumb sumbytch.... :lol:
Come on dude, seek your entertainment elsewhere. With a few exceptions, this is a very informative thread.

I see 1 exception. Argue argue argue! How does that help? ST is about helping!

Go hang with the boys and tell everyone how big you're ............. head is. [-X

You haven't said anything to contribute only to argue!

Ok I said it.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by falcongeorge » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:26 pm

427Impaler wrote:I have to thank falcongeorge for turning me on to this forum. This is the kind of discussion I have been looking for on the web. Awesome. I am just a dedicated hobbyist but I really appreciate the technical aspect of the hobby.

I still think the stock bolts provide a stretching cushion for the crankshaft harmonics, detonation, clutch shake, etc. As mbrooks stated, this stretch might be just enough to relieve the parting line tension and prevent the fretting seen by some with studs. This deflection of the bolts may be slight enough to not produce any noticeable negative effects, until the harmonics reached a more destructive level and caused parts failure. It is indeed an interesting riddle either way.

PS falcongeorge: That old ratty 427 is still alive and well living somewhere in northern BC :shock:
I still remember when those guys bought that mess. They just didnt get it, thought the car ran as well as it did because of the short-block, actually it was in spite of the shortblock. :lol: Ooops, hope they arent lurking here!

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by cjperformance » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:22 pm

colormebad wrote:And i call a Dumb@ss a dum@ss ....You your 1 dumb sumbytch.... :lol:

Get back into your 18 wheeler and run some moonshine over the border,, smokey.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Dodge Freak » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:25 pm

Keith Morganstein wrote:Once upon a time this was a serious forum for serious discussion. Started by a very respected NASCAR engine builder. It discussion among professionals that have spent their whole lives trying to be the best they could at building and improving engines. There were also some very smart non-professionals that contributed in a thoughtful way. Along with that were interested, respectful and enthusiastic racers / hot-rodders that asked questions and everyone tried to help them. (For free, on their own time, during their breaks, etc...). Now come the wise guys that just want to pi$$ in the sandbox. What a shame.

True, I think I posted too soon! Can't believe how smarty some are on here now. Please if you haven't got a response to the topic don't answer!

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by colormebad » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:42 pm

My replys are to the 1 smart@ss no it all line hone queen only...To No ONE Else...Don't reply to any topic i ask ?'s about and i won't reply to any of urs....Im a grown man ' and this is america and i do as i please..... :-({|=

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by needforspeed66gt » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:56 pm

colormebad wrote:My replys are to the 1 smart@ss no it all line hone queen only...To No ONE Else...Don't reply to any topic i ask ?'s about and i won't reply to any of urs....Im a grown man ' and this is america and i do as i please..... :-({|=
Just out of curiosity - do you believe in cylinder bore torque plates? :-k
Last edited by needforspeed66gt on Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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