main bolt to stud, line hone?

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:23 am

colormebad wrote:We all know who the one person in here is ' that wants to act like hes god and better than anyone else at what he does...I came in here and was saying what i know 100% about the line hone's i have seen and he starts on me...I have seen in lots & lots of forums where he does this to lots of people...Here below is 1 instance....From 1 of many forums he always starts with every new person....Here below is what im talking about..


Yes there is a point to this Carl takes stuff from one form to a different form and cuts it down. He could just as easy do it to any one here on TC. We post our pictures and questions with the hope people would enjoy it/them and get some feed back from them. Not copy the pictures and run to a different form and cut it down. Behind our back. Not with so much as a PM, or hey Mike some thing don't look right. Can I talk to you about it. He's a machinist/supplier and I'm a consumer.

Oh did I say I didn't bring up this subject on this thread. Carl brought it up. Not I.

ps: I have better things to do than argue with this freak wana be....I can tell you right now boy! You want ever be better than me....Back to the other forums that treat people with respect and dont try and act like they better than everyone else.....Later..... 8)
Now the truth comes out your one engine that you are working on not 4 or 5 a week like you posted LOL

Over one the CT site Gary from NY was posting he was building over 300 engines a year :^o but no one new of him and posted all this high end equipment that he did not have and I always questioned his posts and guess what he was truely a bullshyt artist [-X Now I see you posted about the one engine you working on and maybe it did not need line honing :lol: but its far from 100's that you have assembled. HMMMMMMMMMMMM go back and reread all your posts

You want ever be better than me....
What the hell does this mean :lol: :lol:

Again I call a spade and spade and a ace an ace :D :D
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:30 am

trmnatr wrote:
CNC BLOCKS wrote:I just uploaded this video to youtube not long ago' doing a little prime & checking out the oiling system on my on setup....I guess you will say this drill im using is turning the wrong direction & not enough RPM cause i didn't have to have a line hone done on the block after going from bolts to studs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFlpAXEa ... ure=search :D

Did I miss something?
What does priming have to do with line honing? #-o
WOW priming an engine, I guess he is the only one that primes an engine :lol: :lol: Probably his first engine or its some one eleses vidieo =D> =D>[/quote]

Carl, You know my opinion on $hit like this however I have to agree he is a phucking a$$hole.

I guess we can count that Dart block as #1 and #199 when he has to rebuild them everytime[/quote]

With 52 posts and only one engine he is assembling interesting HMMMMMMM
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by mbrooks » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:35 am

you guys making the assumption that with bolts the caps don't move at all, what if they lift enough that they don't fret, with the studs there is enough clamping force that they will fret.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:10 am

mbrooks wrote:you guys making the assumption that with bolts the caps don't move at all, what if they lift enough that they don't fret, with the studs there is enough clamping force that they will fret.
INTERESTING POINT !!!!
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by cjperformance » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 am

mbrooks wrote:you guys making the assumption that with bolts the caps don't move at all, what if they lift enough that they don't fret, with the studs there is enough clamping force that they will fret.
yes i like this thought. Thinking along this line, if the stud clamps the cap on with more force and some cap movement occurs, the friction between cap and block will be far greater than with the lower clamping force of the bolt.
Greater friction and some movement equates to fretting, point contact welding and generally more of a witness that cap movement is taking place. Hmmm.

Maybe the plan is to think from the point that cap movement is just one of those things that happens, and instead of looking for movement witness, look at the bearings and journals to see how much they are feeling the effects of the cap movement.

So, how do the bearings and journals seem to look, on the bolt V's stud debate, maybe this will shed more light, maybe not!
Craig.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by robert1 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:38 am

Since this thread has more curves than Queen Latifa I'll throw one more twist in here. What causes bearings to fret in the most high dollar rods? It certainly isn't because of studs or bolts. And it's not because the cap is lifting off of the rod.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by falcongeorge » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:14 am

Wolfplace wrote:
Kevin Johnson wrote:
strokersix wrote:Necked-down main bolts will twist as well as strech when you torque them. While running that twist will tend to unwind and actually screw the threads deeper into the block a little bit.
For a bolt shaft to twist (and stretch), doesn't it entail that the threaded portion has a higher collection of forces forcing it to stop whilst the head continues to rotate ? [Or the relative rates of rotation are biased to the head.] It would seem that the path of least "unwinding" resistance would be to overcome the friction between the underside of the bolt head and the cap surface. I understand that the physics of a gradually relaxing bolt could be very different from that while tightening -- it is a very interesting topic to think about. Surely the answer to this is already known. (?) The position of the head could be indexed relative to the cap.

strokersix wrote: Studs with full diameter body will not only twist less but also will not screw into the block because they are bottomed out with loctite or whatever. Studs can screw themselves into the nuts instead but less twist plus fine thread means this effect will be reduced.

I think this explains two statements I read above. One, that breakaway torque has been observed lower with studs and two, more fretting observed with studs. Both observations could be a result of the bolts screwing themselves in a bit versus the studs not so much.
I am thinking/predicting that there will be a difference between the fretting seen with main studs installed in a new block versus installed in a used block previously running bolts, other conditions being held constant.
Kevin
Great thought provokers,, thanks
I will leave the girdle thing for another time but,,,
Thinking out loud,,,, in other words conjecture
With regard to twisting
With a bolt you are tightening threads that are XXX distance down a column & at least a good part of the friction is going to be in the threads
Would it not follow that the column would twist more because of this distance?

X2

With a stud, washer & nut
You are tightening threads that are at the point you are measuring & while the stretch is going to be along the column (mostly in the threads if not a necked fastener)
I would assume that the column twisting seen with a bolt would be almost nonexistent?

I assume you meant to say the "column twisting seen with a stud would be almost nonexistent?" If so, I would agree.

With regard to loosening torque I would not put too much stock in this as most of what you would be feeling is break away torque & most of that is friction related rather than actual fastener loading same as trying to final torque with too little difference in value

As far as the bolt screwing itself in more I don't think this would happen
I can see the bolt head backing up if it was in twisting tension just like a spring & relieving some load & in fact have felt it do just that many times with head bolts when using a real good lube under the head which tells me there is more friction in the threads than at the bolt head/head junction.
I never feel this with studs???

I agree. I think IF the bolt was slowly releasing its "twist" it would be loosening, not winding itself into the block. The whole idea seems counter-intuitive to me, but that doesnt necessarily mean its wrong

The more we think we know the more questions,,,, :D

For the most part, this thread is the kind of stuff that REALLY makes this board great. A bunch of guys really thinking this stuff out and throwing ideas out there.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:43 am

robert1 wrote:Since this thread has more curves than Queen Latifa I'll throw one more twist in here. What causes bearings to fret in the most high dollar rods? It certainly isn't because of studs or bolts. And it's not because the cap is lifting off of the rod.
Thats something I have never seen before but have heard of it!!!
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by robert1 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:03 pm

I see it more often than I want. I just had one like this. I normally just hone the rod to knock out the fretting, but once it starts it seems to be easier to reoccur. It's a transfer of metal from the bearing shell to the rod.

trmnatr

Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by trmnatr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:09 pm

mbrooks wrote:you guys making the assumption that with bolts the caps don't move at all, what if they lift enough that they don't fret, with the studs there is enough clamping force that they will fret.
That is a very good point mbrooks :mrgreen:

I never thought of that

trmnatr

Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by trmnatr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:11 pm

robert1 wrote:Since this thread has more curves than Queen Latifa I'll throw one more twist in here. What causes bearings to fret in the most high dollar rods? It certainly isn't because of studs or bolts. And it's not because the cap is lifting off of the rod.

I have heard of this but have not had it myself but could this be caused during tension on the rod during overlap and the rod having an angular load on it too?

Phuck Im not an engineer and sound like it :(

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Wolfplace » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:24 pm

falcongeorge wrote:
On the twisting where you said
I assume you meant to say the "column twisting seen with a stud would be almost nonexistent?" If so, I would agree.
No, this is what I said
I would assume that the column twisting seen with a bolt would be almost nonexistent
Meaning the column twisting seen with a bolt would not be there with the stud
I probably should have added "with a stud" to the end of it & it would have been clearer :wink:

Like so
I would assume that the column twisting seen with a bolt would be almost nonexistent with a stud
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Warp Speed » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:28 pm

robert1 wrote:Since this thread has more curves than Queen Latifa I'll throw one more twist in here. What causes bearings to fret in the most high dollar rods? It certainly isn't because of studs or bolts. And it's not because the cap is lifting off of the rod.
Sure it is........well, to some extent anyway. LOL
With combustion pressure loads and tension loads from rpm applied in an FEA, it is flat amazing how much stuff is moving around. From this movement, the data predicts alomost exactly the fretting areas. The reason the shell frets is from movement due to it losing crush from housing distortion/cap movement at extreme rpm/piston speed. Also, under high loads, the upper bearing moves around quite a bit just from pressure. If you through in a little housing distortion as mentioned it starts looking pretty ugly!
Normal thing in our world!
You see this same thing on the backs of main bearings that are moving around, typically just under the parting lines.
In extreme cases, you can actualy see where oil has been bleeding from behind the upper main bearing!

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by falcongeorge » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:39 pm

Wolfplace wrote:
falcongeorge wrote:
On the twisting where you said
I assume you meant to say the "column twisting seen with a stud would be almost nonexistent?" If so, I would agree.
No, this is what I said
I would assume that the column twisting seen with a bolt would be almost nonexistent
Meaning the column twisting seen with a bolt would not be there with the stud
I probably should have added "with a stud" to the end of it & it would have been clearer :wink:

Like so
I would assume that the column twisting seen with a bolt would be almost nonexistent with a stud
Ah, ok.We were thinking the same thing, but I mis-read the statement. Yes, makes perfect sense. As far as the comment someone else made about the caps lifting so much there was no fretting, I am not the expert here, but it seems to me if the caps lifted that much, you would have more pressing concerns than fretting. I would think you would see a loss of oil pressure, and probably some pretty serious bearing damage?
Hmm, just read Warpspeeds post, maybe my last sentence is wrong. YIKES! The more I learn the less I "know". GREAT stuff guys.

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by robert1 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:47 pm

I just had a conversation with a ST member about this and yes I agree the cap and fork do move around. I don't even begin to know why they don't fret in between the rod and cap. I see the fretting between the bearing and rod on just about every brand of rod I have used. A friend mentioned some type of grease that would stop the transfer of material but he couldn't remember the name. I have a motor in the shop that has minor transfer now but it's not a good example of how bad this can get. This motor broke a rod first night out after a freshen up. The rods were magged. I had 2 other rods from this manufacturer fail in the same manor. No bearing failures just the rod coming apart. I guess we could safely assume the big end on these is moving quite a bit. When you say the bearing loses it's crush this one was on the first night. The coating on the i.d. is still completely in tact with no signs of wear. Yet the o.d was transfering to the rod.

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