main bolt to stud, line hone?

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speedphreake
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main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by speedphreake » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:28 pm

On a sbc 4 bolt block, would changing from stock bolts to studs require a line hone?

Thanks in advance....

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Keith Morganstein » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:51 pm

speedphreake wrote:On a sbc 4 bolt block, would changing from stock bolts to studs require a line hone?

Thanks in advance....
Yes, but you have very little to gain (if anything) by installing studs on a factory four bolt block.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Ron Golden » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:36 pm

X2

Ron

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:08 am

speedphreake wrote:On a sbc 4 bolt block, would changing from stock bolts to studs require a line hone?

Thanks in advance....
Any SBC should be line honed if its going to be used in a performance application and going to studs would change the clamping force and may change the housing diameter, If your using an ARP stud kit read the instructions.

Here is a pic of a 327 with 400 miles on the rebuild and its a perfect example why we line hone.

Image[/QUOTE]
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by xXDaveyJonesXx » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:04 am

Ahhh... [-X

CHT

Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CHT » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:29 am

It costs nothing to check!

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Keith Morganstein » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:33 am

CNC BLOCKS wrote:
speedphreake wrote:On a sbc 4 bolt block, would changing from stock bolts to studs require a line hone?

Thanks in advance....
Any SBC should be line honed if its going to be used in a performance application and going to studs would change the clamping force and may change the housing diameter, If your using an ARP stud kit read the instructions.
Not just performance applications either. Many just need a line hone after so many years of service.

ARP main studs may be very good fasteners, but I see the most cap fretting on engines that have been in service with them. I don't think they clamp as well as the OEM bolts. Stock SBC caps will break before you have to worry about the fasteners. The 2842 caps are better, but most SBC's just have the regular iron caps.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:23 am

Keith Morganstein wrote:
CNC BLOCKS wrote:
speedphreake wrote:On a sbc 4 bolt block, would changing from stock bolts to studs require a line hone?

Thanks in advance....
Any SBC should be line honed if its going to be used in a performance application and going to studs would change the clamping force and may change the housing diameter, If your using an ARP stud kit read the instructions.
Not just performance applications either. Many just need a line hone after so many years of service.

ARP main studs may be very good fasteners, but I see the most cap fretting on engines that have been in service with them. I don't think they clamp as well as the OEM bolts. Stock SBC caps will break before you have to worry about the fasteners. The 2842 caps are better, but most SBC's just have the regular iron caps.
Keith

We line hone just about every block that comes through the door and stud do have much better clamping force over a bolt seeing that a stud has a fine thread at the top.
CHT wrote:It costs nothing to check!
Most shops can only check bore demension and can not check alignment issues and thats where most problems lie.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Keith Morganstein » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:08 pm

The best way to check the mainline is to just align hone it. Done, good, move on. It's not an expensive or time consuming job. You have piece of mind knowing every thing is good.

You can get a rough indication of if a block DEFINITELY needs an align hone by laying a straight edge across the main saddles. If you can see daylight or slide a feeler under it DEFINITELY needs it. That is not an all encompassing test by any means, but if it fails that test, you know it has to be done. Still, I would just rather do it than worry about it.

Main studs - You know I drank the Koolaid and read the ARP literature and studded a whole bunch of engines. I understand the theory, the fine thread etc.. Some I still stud, but I see so much more cap fretting on studded racing engines. My unscientific opinion is that the main bolt stretches just right and actually does a better job holding the cap down.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Dodge Freak » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:55 pm

Only on Speedtalk I would see somebody posting something bad about using main studs and think there might be something to it!

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:18 pm

Keith Morganstein wrote:
Main studs - You know I drank the Koolaid and read the ARP literature and studded a whole bunch of engines. I understand the theory, the fine thread etc.. Some I still stud, but I see so much more cap fretting on studded racing engines. My unscientific opinion is that the main bolt stretches just right and actually does a better job holding the cap down.
I have to ask are you machining your blocks and balancing your rotators?? We have built a lot of circle track engines for years and have not seen any fretting of main caps. I would have to say something is going on here and it needs to be addressed if your seeing caps moving!!!
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by 427Impaler » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:40 pm

Man, this site is always a good read. I would not have expected to read this thread and find most builders recommend using standard fasteners, I apparently bought into the whole "studs are better" propaganda. I have always studded and line honed.

Here is a newby question, what are you reffering to when you say "cap fretting"?

Bob

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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Keith Morganstein » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:02 pm

CNC BLOCKS wrote:
Keith Morganstein wrote:
Main studs - You know I drank the Koolaid and read the ARP literature and studded a whole bunch of engines. I understand the theory, the fine thread etc.. Some I still stud, but I see so much more cap fretting on studded racing engines. My unscientific opinion is that the main bolt stretches just right and actually does a better job holding the cap down.
I have to ask are you machining your blocks and balancing your rotators?? We have built a lot of circle track engines for years and have not seen any fretting of main caps. I would have to say something is going on here and it needs to be addressed if your seeing caps moving!!!

Carl, of course!!! align honed with sunned equipment and balanced. Majority of blocks blueprinted with BHJ fixtures. The engines I see the most fretting on is higher HP drag race engines and pulling engines. The ones with NOS are the worst.


For the other guy: When you remove a main or rod cap and see a little lump of metal on one side and a little crater on the mating piece, that is evidence of fretting. Movement of the cap that causes micro welding and the metal transfer that you see.
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by Wolfplace » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:04 pm

427Impaler wrote:Man, this site is always a good read. I would not have expected to read this thread and find most builders recommend using standard fasteners, I apparently bought into the whole "studs are better" propaganda. I have always studded and line honed.

Here is a newby question, what are you reffering to when you say "cap fretting"?

Bob
Not saying there is anything wrong with GM fasteners,, they are pretty stout but with regard to most builders recommending them over studs I know I don't

My experience mirrors that of Carl's with regard to studs.
The caps do not move,, or I should say do not appear to move as much with studs
Assuming the studs are correctly tightened

Fretting is the caps moving & it looks almost like someone was welding on them
Carl has some excellent pics he has put up in the past of fretting, maybe he will put them up again,,,
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Re: main bolt to stud, line hone?

Post by 427Impaler » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:25 pm

Thanks all for clarifying exactly what fretting is. Nice to know I can ask a question which might seem simple and not get plowed! :D

Many years ago we built a 2 bolt street strip 427 that exhibited some evidence of cap walk on the bearings, we moved to a 4 bolt studded block since then and have had no signs since.

Thanks again guys,
Bob

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