Best OEM blocks???

[F1Fever]

my friend built a 496 2 bolt main block, eagle rods & crank, srp pistons, afr heads. lots of nitrous. It went 8.60's @ 155-157 and finally went down b/c a rocker arm came apart. This was in a full street legal, through the mufflers stock front suspension chevy luv, iirc 3250 lbs... that's a lot of nitrous power on a stock block. I do not believe it was filled.

[Alan Roehrich]

Bill,
For the money, with an OEM block, you can probably pick up more HP per dollar with a tall deck MK IV big block Chevy. A 4.310 x 4.5 6.7 rod flat top with 100cc heads will give you 10:1 compression on 525 cubic inches. The Edelbrock aluminum heads will easily hit 103cc, we use the 118cc Performer RPM version sold as a GM Performance Parts head and mill them to 104c. If you start the 112cc chamber Victor Jr. version you can get to 100cc without a problem. All off the shelf parts, Eagle crank, 6.7" H beam rods, and JE flat top pistons. A matching intake, a 950cfm 4150 style carburetor and a decent roller cam should make plenty of HP and a ton of torque. I'm thinking close to 700HP, and maybe 650 foot pounds.

That's just a real quick scan of off the shelf stuff fairly easily found and put together. The worst problem would be looking at the clearance near the pan rail and the oil gallery, you have to be careful there when you get to a 4.5 stroke, a 4.625 can be done, but boy can you run into trouble with clearance. The biggest piston they had was a 4.310, I'm sure there's a 4.35 or 4.375 to be had.

I'm sure there's a better head, a better intake, and you could get more aggressive with the cam, it becomes a matter of how hard you want to push it. I suggested a big 4150 carburetor because it's cheaper than a Dominator built to the same level in most cases, and unless you race, you won't use most of the Dominator, so the 4150 has a price advantage and a driveability advantage.

Yes, you could do it with a 460, at a higher price, and probably not get much, if any, more HP. It's a little easier to get to 550 or so cubic inches with the Ford.

[plovett]

Bill,
Yes, you could do it with a 460, at a higher price, and probably not get much, if any, more HP. It's a little easier to get to 550 or so cubic inches with the Ford.

It's actually a lot easier to get 550 inches from a 460. All 460's are 10.3 inch deck height. Almost all production BBC's are 9.8 inch. Get 550 inches from that? Even the the relatively rare truck blocks at 10.2" are less than any dime a dozen 429 or 460. Plus you could make 800+ hp from a 460 with ported factory 429 CJ heads. No contest IMO.

Here's some other points:

http://www.highflowdynamics.com/

And no, I do not have a 385 series Ford. But facts is facts.

JMO,

paulie

[wjnielsen]

I'm going to guess a guy might pay a premium for a 10.2" Chev truck block?

-Bill

[Alan Roehrich]

We see them for about $400 or so. They're cheaper than a 4 bolt main passenger deck block. The example I gave earlier used a 0.060 over piston, it'll go 0.125 easily.


While you can certainly do a nice job on a set of 429CJ or SCJ heads, if you can find them, they still won't flow with a good set of rectangle intake port big block Chevy heads that are far easier to find, with the same amount of work.

Yes, the 460 will get to 550 as easy as the Chevy will get to 525. But you'll spend more money doing it with the Ford. And the heads on the Chevy, especially if you stay OEM, will easily beat the Ford heads.

The max for a tall deck, if you're careful, is 557.

You can easily get a 4.375 stroke in a short deck passenger block, so you can build a 526 short deck as well. The difference will be that the rod/stroke ratio won't be near as nice.

[wjnielsen]

my friend built a 496 2 bolt main block, eagle rods & crank, srp pistons, afr heads. lots of nitrous. It went 8.60's @ 155-157 and finally went down b/c a rocker arm came apart. This was in a full street legal, through the mufflers stock front suspension chevy luv, iirc 3250 lbs... that's a lot of nitrous power on a stock block. I do not believe it was filled.

Yikes!

At the risk of further stirring the pot (I don't want MY thread to be the catalyst for bloodshed in the streets between the Brand F and C camps), I guess there's another question: is the rectangle port Chev head or CJ style 460 Ford significantly better? I'm talking about either an OE casting with modest work, or a piece like the above mentioned Edelbrock part for Chev (or the Ford Motorsports piece) - is one going to have a significant advantage? Edit: looks like Alan typed faster than I could...

But, I'm not really held to the thought of OE castings. Especially since I'm not working in a shop anymore, I have to pay $$$ for all work done. Working on old castings eats into the price advantage they offer, especially when you're buying the CJ or rectangle port stuff. With a chrysler, it just doesn't really make sense NOT to buy the 440 Source heads for a grand, as opposed to doing everything to a set of 906 castings. I'm going to guess that the economics are similar on other brands.

One advantage I see for the Ford is that it's going to have more room all over... part of which is a taller piston (a little less rock; should live a little better on the street).

Looking at prices on Summit (a place I can compare prices easy), it looks like heads, valves, springs, rockers, stud girdles, etc. are going to be similarly priced for both engines.

So, we're just bench racing for now...I'm not running out to throw away my '54 Dodge pickup yet. Just want to get my head around what's outside the 'Ma MoPar' box...

Thanks again for all the info guys!

-Bill

[Alan Roehrich]

Bill,
My fear with the Mopar OEM production block is the main webs and caps start to get "iffy" when you start throwing stroke and big power at it, especially in a heavier vehicle.

Honestly, no tighter than you spin a longer stroke engine, you don't run into a ton of trouble with piston stability even in short deck blocks, we've built a few 4.250 and 4.375 stroke short deck engines and spun them over 7000 RPM without problems with reliability, ring seal, or anything of that nature.

As an example, the 555 to 585 big block Chevy engines seen in Super Gas and Super Comp are short deck engines with a 4.375" stroke, they're just built on a Mark IV Bow Tie block so you can go from 4.440" to 4.6" or more on the bore. Those guys are shifting at 6800 to 7400, and they run them forever.

So, even if you built a short deck production block engine with a 4.375" stroke and a 4.375" bore you would have a stout 525 that'll make close to 700HP on pump gas with decent heads. The tall deck allows you to go 0.125" more on stroke, and still have a little better rod/stroke ratio.

[wjnielsen]

Bill,
My fear with the Mopar OEM production block is the main webs and caps start to get "iffy" when you start throwing stroke and big power at it, especially in a heavier vehicle.

Honestly, no tighter than you spin a longer stroke engine, you don't run into a ton of trouble with piston stability even in short deck blocks, we've built a few 4.250 and 4.375 stroke short deck engines and spun them over 7000 RPM without problems with reliability, ring seal, or anything of that nature.

As an example, the 555 to 585 big block Chevy engines seen in Super Gas and Super Comp are short deck engines with a 4.375" stroke, they're just built on a Mark IV Bow Tie block so you can go from 4.440" to 4.6" or more on the bore. Those guys are shifting at 6800 to 7400, and they run them forever.

So, even if you built a short deck production block engine with a 4.375" stroke and a 4.375" bore you would have a stout 525 that'll make close to 700HP on pump gas with decent heads. The tall deck allows you to go 0.125" more on stroke, and still have a little better rod/stroke ratio.

Yup. That's why I'm thinking that my next toy probably won't be a MoPar. Just too much work and money to get to the same place. I dig the cars, but now that we've FINALLY got some halfway decent heads, the blocks flake out on us. *sniff*

Hmmm... I think I hear pitchforks and burning torches being assembled on another message board I frequent!

-Bill

[plovett]

While you can certainly do a nice job on a set of 429CJ or SCJ heads, if you can find them, they still won't flow with a good set of rectangle intake port big block Chevy heads that are far easier to find, with the same amount of work.

I believe factory 429CJ heads can actually be made to flow significantly more than ported factory BBC rectangle ports. Up into the 375 cfm range. Maybe people are getting more out of rectangle ports than I know though.

As for aftermarket heads, the playing field is roughly equal between BBF and BBC. IMO.

JMO,

paulie

Edit: I didn't realize the link in my earlier post doesn't go to the right page.

http://www.highflowdynamics.com/

You have to click on "Advantages of Ford over Chevy". Hopefully that's not too inflammatory. It is pretty interesting. I would also have to say the BBC has some advantages when using factory parts. BBF rods are probably a weak point for instance. And I think it's harder to find a factory 4 bolt BBF blocks. And the only factory forged BBF cranks (except for Boss 429?) are in trucks and have the shorter 429 stroke length.

[F1Fever]

As for aftermarket heads, the playing field is roughly equal between BBF and BBC. IMO.

JMO,

paulie

I think that's after they put BBC ports on the BBF....

[plovett]

As for aftermarket heads, the playing field is roughly equal between BBF and BBC. IMO.

JMO,

paulie

I think that's after they put BBC ports on the BBF....

Now you're just being silly.

paulie

[Alan Roehrich]

I've never seen a 429 head achieve that kind of intake flow. You're claiming a factory cast iron 385 head from around 1970 can be ported to equal a 24 degree aluminum Edelbrock head with a 340cc intake port and a 2.3" intake valve. Are you also claiming the exhaust port can be made to flow enough to keep up with it?

[plovett]

I've never seen a 429 head achieve that kind of intake flow. You're claiming a factory cast iron 385 head from around 1970 can be ported to equal a 24 degree aluminum Edelbrock head with a 340cc intake port and a 2.3" intake valve. Are you also claiming the exhaust port can be made to flow enough to keep up with it?

I don't think it's unusual for them to make that flow. I'm not a porter myself, and I made no claim about the exhaust port. No doubt it suffers in comparison.

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc ... _Big_Block

Heck, even the ordinary "D0VE" type heads can pull over 350 cfm. There's certainly still a lot of misinformation out there about the BBF.

JMO,

paulie

[Keith Morganstein]

WHY oh WHY does this always have to turn into a Chevy VS. Ford argumant?

If you've been building engines and racing long enough, you should know that BBC and BBF engines are very competitive with each other, but that never was the root of this thread.

The point was best choice of OEM block and perhaps OEM crank for a modest, economical, yet powerful pump gas build using some aftermarket components. The OP never said you had to use OEM heads, OEM rods etc.., but that seems to be the big debate.

[plovett]

WHY oh WHY does this always have to turn into a Chevy VS. Ford argumant?

If you've been building engines and racing long enough, you should know that BBC and BBF engines are very competitive with each other, but that never was the root of this thread.

The point was best choice of OEM block and perhaps OEM crank for a modest, economical, yet powerful pump gas build using some aftermarket components. The OP never said you had to use OEM heads, OEM rods etc.., but that seems to be the big debate.

Not my intent. Sorry. I don't even own a 385 series Ford. Or a BBC for that matter. And I never said the BBF was superior in every way. I just don't want one-sided info out there.

JMO,

paulie