do BBC lifter bores need brass sleeves to prevent galling?

bill jones · Post by **bill jones** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:39 pm

-Have a racer here who is asking about sleeving lifter bores on his cast iron BBC Big Chief engine.
-He's heard stories that the lifters gall to the lifter bores with the spring pressures around 1000# open and valve lifts around .900" unless they are bushed.
-the problem here is that nobody in this area does BBC lifter bores yet---and that I will probably be the guy that ends up doing something about it.
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-So my questions here include:
-This sounds like it could be a valid story---is this true or false?
-Is BHJ the only choice for tooling?
-Is their stuff adequate and reliable?
-Does anybody have any horror stories about lifter bore bushing jobs gone bad or done poorly etc?
-How much does the entire BHJ setup cost? just whatrever it takes to do BBC lifter bores?
-How much is a fair and reasonable price to charge a person to do one block at a time?
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-Does the brand of lifter contribute to the galling issues?
-Do certain oils pretty well eliminate the galling?
-Does anyone use coatings on the lifter bodies to eliminate the galling?
-if coatings are an effective alternative does the coatings have to be done before the lifters are assembled?

TSTOM · Post by **TSTOM** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:18 pm

We do a lot of 632 big Duke/Cheif engines for Top Sportsman with the kind of lift and spring pressure you describe ,mostly Dart BigM blocks with a few Donovans mixed in We do not bush the lifters unless the customers requests it and have not had any galling problems Most of these engines get run a lot so if there was a proble we'd know We use a small variety of lifters Crower, Crane, Isky,Comp
We do however use the BHJ tooling on BB Chrysler blocks to fix oiling issues and have been pleased with it (had it a long time) I think the kit is around $1000 but don't quote me they also offer step up kits as some of the basic componets are the same between Chevy Chrysler etc. We have also done single bore repairs of damaged bores on our Bridgeport of engines we did not have the BHJ tooling for No horror stories to speak of
We get $400 + the price of the bushings
I'm not sure what finishing process the Dart blocks use on the lifters bore but they look shiney and honed when you get them It just hasn't been a problem for us We use Brad Penn oil made here in Pa. but some of our customers use other brands ..no full synthetics though

Tom

Motorman 407 · Post by **Motorman 407** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:30 pm

Galling in BBC is something we have seen with offset lifters and heavy spring loads and bronze bushings has solved the problems for us.
Just by working on them, reaming, honing etc I have developed a feeling that the bushings sold to thru CV products, PPPC etc are a better quality bushing then the ones supplied by BHJ
Now there (BHJ) tool is a .998 reamer for a 1.000 bushing and the others use a 1.002 bushing for a 1.000 reamer something to think about. (Or is it the opposite can’t remember and I’m not at the shop)

k-star · Post by **k-star** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:57 pm

Hey Bill,

I can't answer all you questions but heres what i can,

When i worked at the other shop part time i did a bunch of big block and small block chevy lifter bores with the BHJ fixture. We never had one bushing failure, but we fixed alot of problems with destroying flat tapett cams by fixing the bores...

I think that shop charged $350 with the bushings. I charge $300 with the bushings in my shop.

Somebody on this site had a problem with the BHJ fixture locating the new holes off of location (front to back) but i can not remember who it was.. I never seen that problem at the other shop and i have not used mine since i bought it...

IMO the BHJ pieces are very well thought out. i think the lifter bushing fixture is good enough that you could run the reamer with a hand drill,,, The guy i bought mine off of did it that way,,,but i would use the mill....

The only other thing i want to try is pre-drilling the bushings before installation, running that long ass drill through the oil passages is a pain....

Keith

Wolfplace · Post by **Wolfplace** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:48 pm

Hi Bill,
Can't tell you if it is necessary but I have done a few & can tell you the factory holes are not necessarily where they should be in a lot of cases.
I have seen them where an .875 bore would not clean them.

I charge $400 + bushings & did them in a vertical boring mill with the BHJ fixturing.
I used the BHJ stuff for years & it seemed pretty fair in my opinion.
It ain't cheap though.
The BB kit is $1800+ & this assumes you have their 2" bar & main rings.
The whole deal for BB & SB is about $35-3600 with most of the cutters.
.875, .906 & 1"

I have all the Chevy stuff for sale but don't really want to break it up.
If anyone is interested they can email me.

jdeleon · Post by **jdeleon** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:41 pm

Bill,

BHJ keeps record of your reamer(s). The last BBC I did last month left a finished dia of .9987". (starting to dull) BHJ custom built a couple of sets of bushings for me in about a weeks time.

bill jones · Post by **bill jones** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:42 pm

-WHY is your BHJ stuff for sale?
-what all is included?
-how much are you wanting for it all?
-How much problem is it to box up for shipping?
-How much weight is involved for shipping?

CNC BLOCKS · Post by **CNC BLOCKS** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:01 pm

We have never seen any issues with gauled lifter bores at our shop but we have had engines come in form other shops with this issue and we found the shop had no bore gauges to check lifter bores with and they were on the tight side and we use a no go gauge to double check things with when when they are finished honed.

We use a CNC machine now to do our lifter bore work, And find it to be accurate as I am working off one set up and not assembling 6 peices of a fixture to do the work as I also have my BHJ fixture for sale as well as its only a dust collector now.

I really did not care for the reamed finish of the BHJ, Now we leave .001 to .0015 to hone out and find that to be a better finish.

I build and maintain 2 blower engines these are SBCs and are raised cam tunnel aluminum blocks (Dart and Brodix) and using the high port Buick heads on these engines the push rods are at a slight angle and did side load the lifter bore a little and we did see a little wear using .842 lifters and then we went to the .904 lifter bores and the last time we had the engines apart they looked fine still had the hone marks every where and these engines have 460 at the seat and 1150 over the nose and are not bushed just an aluminum bore and its softer then bronze and they look fine.

Wolfplace · Post by **Wolfplace** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:18 pm

bill jones wrote:-WHY is your BHJ stuff for sale?
-what all is included?
-how much are you wanting for it all?
-How much problem is it to box up for shipping?
-How much weight is involved for shipping?

=
Because I do them in the CNC machine now.

It consists of the SB kit, BB step up kit, 1", .904, .875 piloted cutters & .842 reamer (842 is a finish reamer) & a set of 2.280" rings for doing oversize small blocks that have been bored for roller bearings & instructions.
It is in excellent condition. The cutters are fresh.

Give me a call or email on price.

Shouldn't be a big deal to box up. in a couple of boxes
About 50lbs guessing. I would need to weigh it all.

Here are some pics of it set up on the mill.

=======EDIT=====
Just saw Carls post & agree, I do not use the finish "reamer", I hone the bushings.

BTW,,, the AC650 is for sale too

dbusch · Post by **dbusch** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:34 pm

with 350-400lbs seat and 1200+ open springs, as well as a cam with over .500" lobe lift and moderately small base circle (1.1-1.15") you should be running bronze sleeves. i tried some cast iron lifter sleeves with my engine and it was a disaster. they wore completely out in a matter of 3 or 4 1/4mile runs. my machinist is excellent so i dont think he did anything wrong. went back to bronze sleeves and no more wear...

airflowdevelop · Post by **airflowdevelop** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Bill,
I have run a number of BBC's with more than 1000lbs over the nose with no problems. Even one in my personal street car for a little over 3k miles (i know...sometimes I even wonder what I was thinking). The motor on the street showed some light scuffing on the lifters, but that was about it (we are talking less then .0002 wear).

Some factory BBC's had problems with lifter locations, and I am sure this would make the problem much worse!

IMHO, I believe that having the proper clearance, length lifter, finish, AND valvetrain geometry are pinnacle. I am sure their is a point that a sleeve is necessary, but I have not been their yet.

I have seen an awful lot of decent lobe SB and BB stuff that tears up valvetrain, and 90% of the time it is due to checking geometry on the basecircle of the cam with a plastic rocker. (But I'm sure you know all about that)

Dennis

CNC BLOCKS · Post by **CNC BLOCKS** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:30 pm

Most of the High end blocks we do we machine the cam tunnel so its paraelle with the crankand the center to center of the crank and the cam are the same and from there we correct the lifter bores.

We have seen blocks where guys have corrected the lifter bores and not checked the placement of the cam tunnel and if the center to center distance is off the lifters are going to track on one side of the lobe which will amplify the side load of the lifter.

And by squaring everything up and going to the .904 lifters the rollers track on the cam better as there is more surface area of the roller on the cam lobe and more surface area of the lifter in the lifter bore.