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GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby JDR Performance » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:36 pm

Let me be clear about this. They are SUPPOSED to be sealed motors and the CORRECT bolts shouldn't be floating around. I would much rather see the professional engine builders getting the work without a doubt but for the people that consider racing crates or quitting their two options, I would rather see them race crates.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby engine101 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:38 pm

Cam King is 100% right! Crate Motors rob us all of making money. The Crates are so cheated up around here it's not
even funny! Most of them are 383's around here. 425HP-475 Ft. Lbs. of torque, how's that for a 350HP 9 to 1 motor?
Less rules costs less money! Most tracks check nothing because they don't want to lose the cars they have.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby RW TECH » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:53 pm

JDR Performance wrote:Let me be clear about this. They are SUPPOSED to be sealed motors and the CORRECT bolts shouldn't be floating around. I would much rather see the professional engine builders getting the work without a doubt but for the people that consider racing crates or quitting their two options, I would rather see them race crates.


Those correct bolts have been back-door'ed & reproduced since the day the sealed crates hit the streets and I have good reason to think there is a "friends & family plan" criteria for authorized centers to work on them as well as prefered combinations for close friends & tight-lipped customers.

At one time I sent a note to a sanctioning body, asking the simple question "How does a shop become an authorized rebuilder?" I had the read receipt set up on that note & all who I sent the message to read it but not a single one of them responded.

If that deal was legit there would be absolutely no reason for a sanctioning body to hold back on giving me a specific criteria their authorized crate service facilities would have to meet. Least case scenerio would've been "We have enough builders for now". I didn't even get that.

I'm not mad about not getting the work because all I was trying to do was reaffirm something I already thought in the first place. Judging by the lack of reaction I'd say my hunch was right.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby JBV-HEADS » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:44 pm

Crate programs have created more cheating than anything I've ever seen in circle track racing. It's the assumption that something is being done to stop cheating that is the base root of the problem. You a$$-u-me that something is being done, but it isn't. Things aren't being checked. The original idea was a good one. The not checking is what ruined the idea. Bolts are a dime a dozen. Fuel isn't checked, no one goes inside the engine of the winners. People pay outrageous amounts for so called blueprinted (inferring improvement) engines. You can only go to the spec level or it is illegal, so why the premium price. All race engines receive extra attention. Why is the Crate engine more. Well they had to pay me or someone like me for the extra work. Tech didn't stand a chance. When it left here, I couldn't find it. And I did the work. Add cams, lifters, electronics and you can't stop it. People just don't seem to understand that there is only one rule in tech. Pass tech. It doesn't matter if you drive in with a blower. If they only check tires, you pass. There must be a program to address all items that can give an unfair advantage to a competitor. You can't do a complete program at one time but over several races it can be done. It just isn't done. As far as the moral issue, there isn't one with me. We were being cheated and no one was looking out for us. So we became the best we could at it. We took it in our own hands to protect ourselves. My belief's say I must turn my head once. But the second time, I'm responsible for protecting my own. This was the only way it could be done or let others take money from me and mine. I'm not going to let that happen and educated myself. Good tech and policing is the only way crates can be made fair. It's just not being done. Good luck,

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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby LateModel13 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:51 pm

CAMKING: Here is a question on these crate POS camshafts!

First I'm a racer competing against these crates with a built motor 350CFM carb booster work allowed...I bought an Audie Tech Cam Pro machine for our tech guy because I was tired of all the BS with this crate JUNK! There are still a number of other ways for crate motors to be cheated up, but the camshaft has the most potential performance gains besides cubic inches.

As you know the Audie Cam Pro checks the cam in the car...(lift, where cam is degreed in at, duration, LSA) it checks at every 1/10th of 1 degree and down to one micron... THATS ONE BAD MOTHER... except for GM's ridiculous tolerances such as up to +/- 5 degrees duration which leaves that door open for every camshaft competing to be at maximum tolerance...

How the heck can the Audie machine be beat and what would be a realistic result in doing so? Don't know if your willing to answer that on hear but it pisses me off to be running a legal built motorwith that stupid 350CFM restrictor plate on top and these buttheads that already have an advantage get an even bigger one!

That SUX....
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby 3V Performance » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:26 pm

My question is why are they in the top clases??? Top clases are top drivers, top crew chiefs, top chassis, most expensive tires, highest payout, etc. etc. I have had guys in lower clases spend WAYYY more in there engines then crate engine prices. My point is its always the engine that gets axed first. Why no crate (spec ) chassis or a set of Monroe gas shocks, or a spec coil spring? ( 4 springs @ over 1800 each. :oops: ) It's out of controll...
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby JDR Performance » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:38 pm

I don't doubt it a bit. Anytime there's a black market for something there'll be a supply. I know that there were some cheesy knockoff bolts being sold but wasn't aware that the legit stuff was that easy to come by. I'm not defending anything, and have only passed on what customers and track owners have told me. I build carburetors, not crate motors. I will say that it's made the phone ring since people who AREN'T cheating up the motors want bolt on parts that'll pick up power. Some of them have made comments about either running crates or selling off the Super Late model and buying a pontoon boat or something. As far as the tracks go, if it was bad for them why would tracks be adding them instead of getting rid of them? I know that I've heard of several cases where people who were winning a lot and "cheating" had the motors torn down and were found to be completely legal. Like I said before I would much rather see the engine builders make the money than big business so I don't disagree with anyone's viewpoint. It's all perspective.

"QUOTE" Those correct bolts have been back-door'ed & reproduced since the day the sealed crates hit the streets and I have good reason to think there is a "friends & family plan" criteria for authorized centers to work on them as well as prefered combinations for close friends & tight-lipped customers.

At one time I sent a note to a sanctioning body, asking the simple question "How does a shop become an authorized rebuilder?" I had the read receipt set up on that note & all who I sent the message to read it but not a single one of them responded.

If that deal was legit there would be absolutely no reason for a sanctioning body to hold back on giving me a specific criteria their authorized crate service facilities would have to meet. Least case scenerio would've been "We have enough builders for now". I didn't even get that.

I'm not mad about not getting the work because all I was trying to do was reaffirm something I already thought in the first place. Judging by the lack of reaction I'd say my hunch was right.[/quote]
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby JDR Performance » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:49 pm

Tracks around here had low car counts in the Super Late Model class and tracks were dropping them or couldn't guarantee the payout.. Some of the people who had them couldn't afford the power or parts to run with well funded competitors. They already had the car and could either get out there and get their rear handed to them or run up front in the crates. For a lot of people it's easier to change the drivetrain than sell a car in a tough economy and start over. Again, what I've been told by people running them.
3V Performance wrote:My question is why are they in the top clases??? Top clases are top drivers, top crew chiefs, top chassis, most expensive tires, highest payout, etc. etc. I have had guys in lower clases spend WAYYY more in there engines then crate engine prices. My point is its always the engine that gets axed first. Why no crate (spec ) chassis or a set of Monroe gas shocks, or a spec coil spring? ( 4 springs @ over 1800 each. :oops: ) It's out of controll...
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby CamKing » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:27 pm

LateModel13 wrote:except for GM's ridiculous tolerances such as up to +/- 5 degrees duration which leaves that door open for every camshaft competing to be at maximum tolerance...

And how much HP do you think another 5 degrees is worth?
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby 3V Performance » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:15 pm

JDR Performance wrote:Tracks around here had low car counts in the Super Late Model class and tracks were dropping them or couldn't guarantee the payout.. Some of the people who had them couldn't afford the power or parts to run with well funded competitors. They already had the car and could either get out there and get their rear handed to them or run up front in the crates. For a lot of people it's easier to change the drivetrain than sell a car in a tough economy and start over. Again, what I've been told by people running them.
3V Performance wrote:My question is why are they in the top clases??? Top clases are top drivers, top crew chiefs, top chassis, most expensive tires, highest payout, etc. etc. I have had guys in lower clases spend WAYYY more in there engines then crate engine prices. My point is its always the engine that gets axed first. Why no crate (spec ) chassis or a set of Monroe gas shocks, or a spec coil spring? ( 4 springs @ over 1800 each. :oops: ) It's out of controll...



So if 4 go out and buy crate engines to compete in a class they can't afford and the car count goes up by 4 or 5 how does this bring in sponsers? You just took work away from the builder that was sponsering the class anyway. Hey I want to run Cup or Pro Stock maybe they should allow me a crate engine option so I can run a class I should not be in. :roll:
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby 3V Performance » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:17 pm

CamKing wrote:
LateModel13 wrote:except for GM's ridiculous tolerances such as up to +/- 5 degrees duration which leaves that door open for every camshaft competing to be at maximum tolerance...

And how much HP do you think another 5 degrees is worth?



Alot when you also get a rpm intake, 650 carb, 1.6 rockers, open spacer, and 75lbs weight break.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby Keith Morganstein » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:32 pm

RW TECH wrote:
JDR Performance wrote:Let me be clear about this. They are SUPPOSED to be sealed motors and the CORRECT bolts shouldn't be floating around. I would much rather see the professional engine builders getting the work without a doubt but for the people that consider racing crates or quitting their two options, I would rather see them race crates.


Those correct bolts have been back-door'ed & reproduced since the day the sealed crates hit the streets and I have good reason to think there is a "friends & family plan" criteria for authorized centers to work on them as well as prefered combinations for close friends & tight-lipped customers.

At one time I sent a note to a sanctioning body, asking the simple question "How does a shop become an authorized rebuilder?" I had the read receipt set up on that note & all who I sent the message to read it but not a single one of them responded.

If that deal was legit there would be absolutely no reason for a sanctioning body to hold back on giving me a specific criteria their authorized crate service facilities would have to meet. Least case scenerio would've been "We have enough builders for now". I didn't even get that.


I'm not mad about not getting the work because all I was trying to do was reaffirm something I already thought in the first place. Judging by the lack of reaction I'd say my hunch was right.


It gets worse. You can't even buy a new crate from GM and run it at some tracks. You have to buy it new from an authorized service shop and they have to dyno it. Some tracks list one sole authorized service shop and that's it.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby ProPower engines » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:03 pm

Thats the way it is here too.
One dealer gets the biz specified by the track promoter then it gets shipped to his buddy and thats where you pick it up.
Then they put their own seals on it and call the racer to pick it up. Then they charge an extra $100 for a restrictor plate they must run at the local track again supplied by the tracks buddy and local chassis builder
They do not run them on a dyno they just say here you go thanks for playing our game. The only other guy is a 1 1/2 hr ferry boat ride and and 1 hr's drive time to get to the next approved dyno test facillity and if it don't make the spec'd power thats tough they won't allow them to go in and fix it with out his guy there and the travell time and costs have to be paid for by the original guy that bought the engine in the first place. GEEEEE thats fair. Not! Crates are a POS way for tracks to get money from the dealer that sells the junk to the racer and put the local engine guys that support the tracks in the back field and they wonder why ..............................
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby JDR Performance » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:13 am

AGAIN let me say that I'm not arguing in favor of them I'm just telling you what happened around here. The Super Lates and Crate Lates are two different classes. I guess that money got tight and the Super Lates weren't showing up at the track. People were sitting on their wallets. They started up the crate classes to get more cars through the gate, more pit passes, more people in the stands eating food, etc. Some of the guys that had been running Super Lates switched over to Crates. I do work for both so as long as they're racing it's better for me, the track owner, the chassis builders, tire guys, etc. If the motors are as cheated up as people on here are claiming it must be good for the engine builders too. It sounds like the deal is different everywhere especially accross the border there so I can see how you guys would feel the way you do about it. BTW nobody was inferring that someone should be able to run Cup or Pro Stock with sub par equipment. To the guy with the cam question, sorry it got off topic.


"quote"So if 4 go out and buy crate engines to compete in a class they can't afford and the car count goes up by 4 or 5 how does this bring in sponsers? You just took work away from the builder that was sponsering the class anyway. Hey I want to run Cup or Pro Stock maybe they should allow me a crate engine option so I can run a class I should not be in. :roll:[/quote]
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Postby levisnteeshirt » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:32 am

this is why i think they should run a " stock apearing " crate class , or an " outlaw crate " class ,,,, if its all about reducing the price of engines for racing ,,,, have a crate class , then if you win 3 features , your moved up to the stock appearing or outlaw class for these engines once they need rebuilt . There should be plenty of engines out there now to support something like that. You can't sit and cherry pick one class simply because you are the best cheater.

how the car is set up does still make a difference ,, i watched one " so called " crate late , win a feature against " steel block only " lates ,, because the track got slick , and they couldn't do anything with him.

I feel if GM made the crate rage , then they should have to police it. I think GM should be allowed to show up at any event these engines are being used , and have the right to capture any engine they want , after supplying a new replacement , and be able to tear it down , if its found that the engine's owner has enfringed on GM's copyright , you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And actually do it , enforce it , bust a few of 'em hard.

If those cams in 'em are that sloppy , thats a raw deal. This day and age , thats in-excuseable.
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