GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

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levisnteeshirt wrote:


i played with a 604 on my buddies dyno ,,, it made 415 hp ,,, not a very strong engine ,,, it idled smooth , like a pass car ,,,
Wow I just tested a crate 602 and I thought it was a strong one with a peak Hp of 373 @ 5500. This was with a trick VDL 650 and Schoenfled sprint headers though. I can't believe people actually think these are race engines though with it's glass smooth idle, low compression and poor output--not to mention low price. As an engine builder I kinda despise the whole crate thing. Around here you can run an "open head" motor but you have to weigh + 300lbs, advantage goes to crate. J.Rob
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by JDR Performance »

Some of the crate guys do have to run a chip. I don't like to see a class phased out either, but I know that at some tracks they were only getting a few cars for a class and now draw in 20+ a night in the crate late model class. There were enough guys who have Super Late Models but can't afford to try to race $ against $ so they could either sell out or run crates. A lot of them have said that they enjoy this at least as much. There are a lot of late model chassis for sale already and it's a cheap way to get into it. It's worked out well for the IMCA Sport Mod stuff and other classes and sanctions. Some tracks allow the crate motor or a built "spec" 2bbl motor so that you have a choice, and where the rules are set up right there's a pretty even mix running top 5 every week. I don't like seeing engine builders taking a hit from it though. It would be nice if the crate AND custom built stuff could exist without a negative effect on the other.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by dfree383 »

Like has been said if you want car counts, it needs to ba affordable for average joes to race. $30-40K race motors are way cool and fast but average guys with families and regular jobs can afford to run'em.

More Cars, More People, More sales, More prize money, its a win win for the sport.

as far as checking cams, make the winners pull the and cam doctor them..... No worse than a teardown.

What about issuing serial numbered camshafts and rotating and checking them every so often?
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by novadude »

Curious... what is the int/exh duration @ 0.006" for the cam in the 602? I've only seen 0.050" figures published.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by levisnteeshirt »

i live in a smal area ,, they used to run

stock class

super stock class ,, iron head , iron intake, 4776 carb 3400 lbs , flat tappet cam

modified street - alum heads , iron block , wet sump , 3400 lbs ,, usually took 650 -675 hp to be competitive

limited late class ,, can't remember all the rules ,

super late , lucas oil type cars

now its all about what the thread is about ,,, how to not get caught cheating ,,LOL

its why i never went dirt racing , its a cheaters paradise ,, if thats your thing ,, then there it is ,, i love to watch it , might be good at it , but i can't deal with the mentality

i gotta wonder if a device could be made to measure the intake pulses , at a couple different rpm levels , low ones , 650 , 850, 1000 rpm idling , and graphed on a print out , shown over-laid of what a stock 604 does

that could be something worth looking at ,, best way to develop a signature of what a real 604/602 does

this is why i think a gear , carb , tire rule is easier to enforce than all of this stuff ,,,, give them a gear rule , then there is no need to build a 430 that will pull 8500 rpm , my .02

people with money ,, is who races , been on both sides of that street ,,, if they made racing better , then more fans will come out , and maybe they could raise the purse , to make it more attracitve , , now , we get to watch one crate car thats obviously cheating , because he pulls the field by a whole straight 3 laps in the race ,,, not good for anybody IMO

Image

i like this one better than a crate car that you sit and wonder how much its cheating
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by Koolaid »

Here is your easiest way: have your local track put a $250 exchange option in the rules for the crate class. Problem solved.

More rules just makes it more expensive to run up front.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

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Koolaid wrote:Here is your easiest way: have your local track put a $250 exchange option in the rules for the crate class. Problem solved.

More rules just makes it more expensive to run up front.
Claimer Rule.... That makes things interesting.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by CamKing »

JDR Performance wrote:They're sealed motors and approved rebuilders are the only ones supposed to have replacement bolts.
Now that's funny.
How many replacement bolts do you want to buy? I can get you all you want for $300 a set.

Tracks are finding out that the can't police the crate motors, and there's more cheating then any other class.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by CamKing »

dfree383 wrote: as far as checking cams, make the winners pull the and cam doctor them..... No worse than a teardown.
It's being done, and they still can't find the good ones.
The stock cam tolorences are so bad, you can't find the cheated up ones.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by CamKing »

novadude wrote:Curious... what is the int/exh duration @ 0.006" for the cam in the 602? I've only seen 0.050" figures published.
The stock cams are all over the place.
at .006" the intake will measure anywhere from 270-276. The exhaust will measure between 277-284.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by dfree383 »

CamKing wrote:
dfree383 wrote: as far as checking cams, make the winners pull the and cam doctor them..... No worse than a teardown.
It's being done, and they still can't find the good ones.
The stock cam tolorences are so bad, you can't find the cheated up ones.
Then I guess it doesn't matter then, if the stock suff is that bad??? guess the innovation (cheating) is part of the circle track game.

But in the purest form the crate motors are a good idea to make it a little more affordable for average guys to race and have a good time. But the cheaters and guys with loads of $$$ will always figure out a way to make it miserable for everyone else.

I can honestly never understand why guys will go to such great legnths to win couple hundred dollar prizes !?!?!?
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

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dfree383 wrote: But in the purest form the crate motors are a good idea to make it a little more affordable for average guys to race and have a good time.
Crate motors are the worst thing that ever happened to racing.
They're not cheap when you realize how krappy they're made, and how long they'll last.
There's not far off on price from an unported Iron head, flat tappet cam, stock rocker arm, 2101 manifold, 4412 carb engine, and they make less power, and can't be rebuilt as many times.


Not only do the Crate engines put engine builders out of business. They take money out of the hands of racers, and track owners. You won't be seeing any big advertisements at the tracks, or contengency money from aftermarket engine parts companies. There's two tracks where I was paying to advertise, and paying contengancy awards. When they brought in the Crate motors, they lost that money. The guys running the crate engines still need my cams to be competitive, but I can't really advertise it, so there's no money for running my decals. When you look at the multi-billion dollar performance parts market, that's a lot of money to lock-out.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

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dfree383 wrote: I can honestly never understand why guys will go to such great legnths to win couple hundred dollar prizes !?!?!?
For me, it's not about the money. IT's all about killing the crate engine "Experiment", and keeping professional engine builders in racing. GM needs to stick to building street engines, and leave the racing to the experts.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by RW TECH »

dfree383 wrote:
CamKing wrote:
dfree383 wrote: as far as checking cams, make the winners pull the and cam doctor them..... No worse than a teardown.
It's being done, and they still can't find the good ones.
The stock cam tolorences are so bad, you can't find the cheated up ones.
Then I guess it doesn't matter then, if the stock suff is that bad??? guess the innovation (cheating) is part of the circle track game.

But in the purest form the crate motors are a good idea to make it a little more affordable for average guys to race and have a good time. But the cheaters and guys with loads of $$$ will always figure out a way to make it miserable for everyone else.

I can honestly never understand why guys will go to such great legnths to win couple hundred dollar prizes !?!?!?
A typical Late Model payout is $1200 to win and a couple hundred to start the feature. Special event shows pay quite a bit more, where a $25K purse isn't out of the question.

Crate stuff doesn't save anyone money. Consider the cost for the crate engine & rebuild costs and you'll find out you're almost better off to buy a new engine every time. Now compare that to a $25K engine that doesn't need to be rebuilt as often & when it does it can be thouroughly rebuilt for around the same cost as the replacement crate engine.

Then consider the longevity of the parts in a good engine. Here are some examples of hardware from my shop that are still in service:

23° Chevy

- 867 Pontiac/Brodix heads - new in 1989, acquired & put into service in 1991 and still running
- Jesel rocker system - new in 1993, rockers replaced in 2001
- Jesel belt drive - new in 1991, with periodic replacement of belt & seals
- Pistons replaced in 1996 to hi-comp
- Moldex crank - new in 1991, still in service
- LA Kryptonite rods - same life as the crank
- 010 Chevy block with steel caps & bushed lifter bores - in service since 1991, using a 100K mile core

The only items replaced with any regularity are valves, springs, lifters, rings, bearings, & gaskets. It's never flown apart and raced every Saturday night plus some Fridays & Sunday shows since 1991.

R3/W8 Mopar

- block/crank/rods/heads new in 1997 - still in service
- Keyed jesel lifters replaced once since 2001
- Timing chain & gear set replaced once since 2001
- Pistons replaced in 2001 then 2003 due to a track-tuning error
- Rockers replaced once since 2001

This one has been limited to periodic replacement of valves, springs, rings, bearings, & gaskets.


I'm pretty sure the long-term cost after initial investment to own & operate these examples is quite a bit lower than a crate POS and the fact that these have dry sumps on them tells me the crate POS is at a much greater risk of failure most of the time.
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Re: GM 602 crate how to check for a cheater cam?

Post by Lockwire »

I agree with RW . X2. Stuart.
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