SpeedTalk Store - Opinion Columns

BB mopar question.

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

BB mopar question.

Postby hookedonpullin » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:28 pm

Hey guys,
Bear with me here, I don't have much expirience with mopar engines. I doing some research trying to help a friend. What do we need as far as parts to get in the neighborhood of 900hp. Can we get 540ci with the stock block? Also would like the hp to peak at 7k or less. This is for a truck pull class, we must use a stock block , no power adders or forced induction, sigle 4 barrel carb on a cast aluminum intake. Any cast iron or aluminum head is ok, roller cams ok, race gas ok. Thanks in advance.
hookedonpullin
New Member
New Member
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:22 am
Location: Holland MI.

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby Keith Morganstein » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:08 pm

hookedonpullin wrote:Hey guys,
Bear with me here, I don't have much expirience with mopar engines. I doing some research trying to help a friend. What do we need as far as parts to get in the neighborhood of 900hp. Can we get 540ci with the stock block? Also would like the hp to peak at 7k or less. This is for a truck pull class, we must use a stock block , no power adders or forced induction, sigle 4 barrel carb on a cast aluminum intake. Any cast iron or aluminum head is ok, roller cams ok, race gas ok. Thanks in advance.


You can get 540 (543) cubes with a stock block, but it will be on life support at 900HP. I have several engines out there that make in the lower 800 HP range (up to 830 HP) with well ported Indy 440-1 heads and the matching intake. Cam duration on the 830HP was 284° @ .050" and around .700" lift and a single dominator. These engines had aluminum main caps and studs, were half filled and had all good parts. I've built these in both low deck (501 cu) and tall deck (528cu). So far, they're living o.k.

For 900hp, I would want an aftermarket block. Might consider well ported Victor heads as well as the Indy heads.
"Nil Satis Nisi Optimum"
User avatar
Keith Morganstein
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 4470
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:19 am
Location: MA

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby wjnielsen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:46 pm

The general consensus of a lot of guys is that when you start putting the spurs to a stock block, that the low-deck 400 piece is sometimes better than the 440, because the bores are shorter and will wiggle less under load. And the piston/rod combo tends to be lighter as well. Google "400 cold weather block". You might search for those terms on moparts.

There's a few guys who make stuff (or sell imports). 440 Source has attractive prices; I've found the quality on some of their stuff to be flat unacceptable; other stuff okay without too much rework.

Links:

http://www.chenowethspeedandmachine.com/index.html
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/bengineparts.html


At your power level, you'll probably want to sonic test the block, fill the jackets, go to good aluminum caps, use a stud girdle, and assemble the engine inside a pentagram at midnight, under a chicken leg hanging from the rafters.

Okay, the voodoo stuff is optional (I just kind of enjoy it, that's all...), but there have been failures at lower power levels than you're shooting for.

Not a lot more I can tell ya' other than good luck, and keep your post bumped up to the top.

-Bill
seduce the attractive... charm the rest
wjnielsen
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:27 am
Location: WA 98043

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby Keith Morganstein » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:07 pm

wjnielsen wrote:The general consensus of a lot of guys is that when you start putting the spurs to a stock block, that the low-deck 400 piece is sometimes better than the 440, because the bores are shorter and will wiggle less under load. And the piston/rod combo tends to be lighter as well. Google "400 cold weather block". You might search for those terms on moparts.


-Bill


The low deck also has "beefier" main webs because of the smaller main journal. I've stayed with a 4.15" stroke with the low deck however because the rod/stroke ratio becomes poor with more stroke and clearancing requires a lot of grinding (esp with aluminum rods). This limits you to the 500" CID range. With the light, low deck bobweight, those engines rev-up quick like an SBC. (I really like the 4.15 low deck combo)

I'm told this is the rare 1972 cold weather block with the ribs between the freeze plugs.

Image

Image

Maybe the Mopar guru Andy F will weigh in on this thread.
"Nil Satis Nisi Optimum"
User avatar
Keith Morganstein
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 4470
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:19 am
Location: MA

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby Alan Roehrich » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:37 pm

You need to realize the load pulling is going to put on a stock block. I'm not sure that any stock block, even with aluminum caps, and studs will hold that much power when you're pulling. Maybe not even with a girdle, if you can find one.
User avatar
Alan Roehrich
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 2602
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:58 pm
Location: Murfreesboro TN

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby quickd100 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:18 am

At that hp level and using a stock block is not a very good idea. It's not if it will fail but when it will fail. Save yourself alot of grief and go with a world or indy block, in the end it will be cheaper. And the good 400 mopar blocks were cast from 4-71 through 9 or 10-71. And one of these needs to be sonic checked, they can have serious core shift. Dave
Image
quickd100
Pro
Pro
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:34 am
Location: Nielsville, Mn.

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby andyf » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:45 am

Best chance would be a 400 block with B1 heads and intake. Send Koffel about $30,000 and you'll have what you're looking for. Not sure how long it will last but it should make 900 hp for at least a little while. The stock block just isn't going to hold 900 hp for very long without serious help. Koffel has been building those things for a long time so he probably knows better than anyone how to make it happen.
Andy F.
AR Engineering
andyf
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:55 am
Location: Oregon

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby hookedonpullin » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:00 pm

Thanks guys, what do you feel the safe limit for a stock block is? I am most familiar with big block fords. I just built a 557 for a friend for his puller with a factory DOVE-A block with 4 bolt caps and filled to the water pump holes that made 950hp on the dyno. We could have made more but we wanted it to peak no higher than 7000 rpm. Are we pushing the limit, most likely, but those blocks are alot stronger than they have the right to be. The rules say factory oem blocks but there are no head restrictions so that makes for a "not good" situation. Also that 557 cost 15k to build, I've always heard BBmopars are pricey to get big hp out of but I never really looked into it, Thanks for the input. Maybe the rule will change within the next year or two and race blocks will be ok, the power level definitely warrants it.
hookedonpullin
New Member
New Member
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:22 am
Location: Holland MI.

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby Moparious Maximus » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:56 am

Would your rules alow you to run a mopar performance block?? Its still factory..... kinda.

Will support alot of HP and inches.
1963 Plymouth S/FX, 3215lbs, straight axle, best time 7.99 @ 170mph

572" mopar wedge, 8-71 @ 28% over on alky, glide, dana 60, 31.25X12 slicks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq-xzFWHtFk&NR=1
Moparious Maximus
Member
Member
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:12 pm

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby andyf » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:41 am

You aren't going to build a 900 hp Mopar for $15,000. Not starting from scratch anyway, maybe if you have a bunch of used parts laying around you could do it. A 700 hp motor is going to cost you more than that and the bill really goes up when you start trying to make that kind of power NA.

It is hard to provide a hp limit for the stock blocks because it really depends on the quality of the casting as well as the type of tune up that you're running. My 505 dyno mule motor made 800+ hp for a couple of years before it final cracked the main webs. Some motors die quickly at the 800 hp mark while others live for a few seasons before they go. The blocks just aren't designed for that much power. You're talking about a casting that was designed on a drafting board in 1958 as a truck engine.

The Hemi block is a much better piece if you have to stay with an original casting. Of course, it isn't easy to find an original Hemi block anymore. Double check the rules to see if the new castings from Mopar Performance are allowed. The new blocks are much heavier than the originals and they still carry a factory casting number on them. Most sanctioning bodies allow new castings, otherwise it would be hard to find engine blocks.
Andy F.
AR Engineering
andyf
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:55 am
Location: Oregon

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby hookedonpullin » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:47 am

Ok guys, thanks. The rule used to mean that the block had to have been available in a production car or truck. There was a recent debocle in the club involving a mopar engine that was purchased to pull in the club that used a World race block. Last I heard they were gonna allow it because if you go to the dodge dealership and order a 440 replacement block that is what you get. Not sure if that's true or not. This irritates me a little because if this is the case we could have used an A460 block for the 557 I built for my friend. If you go to the ford dealership, the only 460 replacement block you can get is the A460 race block, very nice block and reasonably priced. Although, had we used the A460 block we would have built a 604 and made 1000+ hp :lol: Anyways, thanks guys, at least now I have a little better understanding of the mopar situation and will be of more help to my Mopar friend.
hookedonpullin
New Member
New Member
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:22 am
Location: Holland MI.

Re: BB mopar question.

Postby andyf » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:24 pm

Yeah, how they read the rules is critical. If you go to the Dodge dealer and buy a block or a crate engine you're going to get the World block. The OEM blocks went out of production in 1978 so there isn't anyway you're going to be buying one of them except in a wrecking yard.

The situation is a little different for Chevy becuase the factory just kept building the big block in one form or another for a long time after Ford and Mopar shut down their big block production. Lots of times the rules are written by people who assume that everyone will be racing with Chevy motors.

If you can use a factory replacment block then you'll be fine. The new World blocks should be able to handle anything that you can throw at them NA. You can go 600 cubes and then run some Predator heads on there and make 1000+ hp if you have the cash.
Andy F.
AR Engineering
andyf
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:55 am
Location: Oregon


Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 68post, Arrowsmith, bill jones, ClassicComp, Don Whitmer, FPV_GTp, Joe Kraemer, johnny5, mach1charlie, teamrude and 49 guests