quick fuel vs pro systems.

[PRO SYSTEMS]

Patrick is off to the Georgia race...but there is a hidden agenda here:

http://www.rmcompetition.com/Carburetors_.html

RM Competition has been doing carbs for 40 years.

How can a dyno operator make 3 dyno pulls and realize for some reason the carb wants 10 more jet sizes than the combination is requesting and the operator cannot tell something is wrong? At ten jet sizes you are typically popping and just carrying on..I've been to lots of dyno sessions, especially during the development of the SV1.

You should know that info on the first half pass warm up pull and you can't hurt anything on a half pull. 10 Jet sizes is pretty far out there compared to our typical jetting move of 2. But I realize that every combo is different and there are some freak combos out there (Glidden has a small block combo that we take 10 jets out of it... no matter the carb...call him..he'll tell ya'), so be ready to adjust if needed.

Our carbs use standard air bleeds we buy from Holley. Must be this was his rebuilt carb that some other builder tapped to an odd size that we conformed to.

Patrick is polite on the phones, I hear him all day. He would be tactful in your situation and not call you an idiot or anything like you implied.

Anyway, along those lines, when we developed our SV1 from scratch with all kinds of engines and just months and months of dyno pulls, we never lifted a ringland on any of our test engines or team engines.

Our 1150 carburetor has WON the Engine Masters Challenge and we are typically 1st or second every year.

RM Competition, I can understand you had issues and need a scapegoat on your experimental engine, but don't throw someone under the bus for it when the data you needed to keep an eye on your program during its development was right in front of you. That's just wrong.

Also congratulations to Spurgeon Adkins who last night debuted his Small Block Mustang and NEW SV1 and the NEW Halo Plate built for the SV1 at the ORTC race in Georgia. He ran a 5.25 at 134 mph with "out of the box" jetting. This is the fastest pass the car has ever made.

Steve Bolla
PRO SYSTEMS

[Eric68]

I've got to say there are a number of good / great carburetor builders besides these two mentioned here. BLP Products and Braswell come to mind as innovators with great products, I'm sure there are others not springing to mind at the moment. How about you guys telling us of all the carburetor modifiers and builders you know. Let's see how many of them there are.

It's funny that only those two are mentioned as though they are the only ones worth considering, so I thought I'd use this thread plugging QT and Pro Sys to show off my own work . The internet is an interesting place for sure.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Well said Troy. I agree. If you can plug your stuff, I'll plug my E85 stuff too http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/gallery.html

Here are the ones that I know of and I think each have their own specialty. The ones I am leery of are the ones that claim to be great/the best at everything.

AED (John Dickey -- good gas stuff and a super guy to work with)

APD (good alky carbs)

Brasswell (excellent high end supplier)

Bo Laws / BLP (alky and gas)

Nickerson (alky)

Rupert (alky)

QuickFuel (seems to be a good supplier of billet main bodies, base plates and metering blocks)

ProForm (very similar to the QuickFuel stuff)

Barry Grant / Demon

Holley

ProSystems (4150 gasoline and Dominator gas race)

TMP (have to mention you Troy)

C&S (blow through)

CSU (blow through)

Horsepower Innovations (my own little start up E85 carb business)

. . . and there are probably a dozen more that I am not familiar with.

[Troy Patterson]

How you build the carburetor determines to some extent the torque and horsepower curves. And I've witnessed increases in torque well below peak with larger carbs - "in the real world" - and on the dyno. Interestingly, I see more gains "in the real world" than the dyno typically shows. A small difference from one carburetor to another on the dyno can drive and perform like two completely different engines - unless the two carburetors are built the same or substantially the same - with only cfm being the difference.

Example: I saw a 15 lb. torque gain (chassis dyno) on one engine with one carburetor over another, then test drove the car with the added weight of another 200 lb. person in the car to offset the torque gain, the car was much more responsive and clearly spun the tires where the did not with the other carburetor.



Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

I am clearly not a carb guru. I tune holleys like most do, but I happen to like Q Jets. I always wondered why you can have two identical part number Q-jets, build and tune them the same, but one will just kick the butt of the other one in responsiveness as you described?

It's true the mass rebuilders years ago would disassemble the carbs and mix tops and center sections and so forth. There are a few variables in the lids. It is possible that one of the two carbs you had this experience with had the wrong top - maybe the one that ran better or maybe the one that didn't, who knows.

Otherwise, I can say there was a lot of consistency with Rochester and they manufactured millions of those. I've modified and tuned my share of them from the first ones through the electronic feedback era - no, that is not an unintentional admission to tapering with emission controlled motor vehicles in the state of California. Great carburetor.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Troy Patterson]

Jay C you are correct I do tell my stalkers what I "actually" think. I don't play the PC thing with them. I call them out. Most of my stalkers (every successful company has them...when I lose them I will worry) are here just to rattle cages and thump their chests or stir up emotions, they really are not trying to help in most cases. They try to come up with an angle to say the exact opposite of whatever you say and prove their case. They have an agenda, hidden or otherwise.

Think of them as Democrats versus Republicans. They are obsessive compulsive types most often that really hate it when they see someone succeed and it keeps them up nights and they even relish when they see a failure even though we should all have a common goal.

So don't take it too serious.



This is a true, unembelished story about Pro Systems. Maybe they do good work and maybe they don't but, I'm never going to put myself in position again to find out.
In 2003, when the EMC was in it's infantcy I recomended Pro Systems to a competitor friend of mine for getting his carburetor modified because I had heard some good things.
To make a very long story short, that 1150 Dominator carb caused the engine to lift 3 piston top ring lands and anneal 6 of the top rings in just 3 dyvo runs. After rebuilding the short block and doing another valve job we made some air bleeds, (Patrick's are a different thread size than anybody else's in the industry), and tuned that carburetor close; 8 high speed air bleeds smaller and 10 jet sizes larger.
I could and would have kept this all under wraps UNTIL he, (the engine and carburetor owner). called Pro Systems to get an assortment of THEIR air bleeds and was told under no uncertain terms that something else was wrong because their carburetor "just wouldn't do that" and the tuner, (me), must be "out to lunch and didn't know what he was doing".
Well, to end it ... that big block Chevy finished 4th in that 2003 EMC contest so it must have been tuned fairly close.

Only third?

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Troy Patterson]

I've got to say there are a number of good / great carburetor builders besides these two mentioned here. BLP Products and Braswell come to mind as innovators with great products, I'm sure there are others not springing to mind at the moment. How about you guys telling us of all the carburetor modifiers and builders you know. Let's see how many of them there are.

It's funny that only those two are mentioned as though they are the only ones worth considering, so I thought I'd use this thread plugging QT and Pro Sys to show off my own work . The internet is an interesting place for sure.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Well said Troy. I agree. If you can plug your stuff, I'll plug my E85 stuff too http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/gallery.html

Here are the ones that I know of and I think each have their own specialty. The ones I am leery of are the ones that claim to be great/the best at everything.

AED (John Dickey -- good gas stuff and a super guy to work with)

APD (good alky carbs)

Brasswell (excellent high end supplier)

Bo Laws / BLP (alky and gas)

Nickerson (alky)

Rupert (alky)

QuickFuel (seems to be a good supplier of billet main bodies, base plates and metering blocks)

ProForm (very similar to the QuickFuel stuff)

Barry Grant / Demon

Holley

ProSystems (4150 gasoline and Dominator gas race)

TMP (have to mention you Troy)

C&S (blow through)

CSU (blow through)

Horsepower Innovations (my own little start up E85 carb business)

. . . and there are probably a dozen more that I am not familiar with.

Thank you Eric!

We don't hear about the Carb Shop any more, don't even know if they are in business, there was another carb builder in the LA area who I had a very nasty experience with them slandering me so I won't do them the service of evening mentioning their name - put I haven't heard about them for some time so I'd guess their no longer in business.

My own experience with Pro Sys and talking to a number of people who either had them modify their carb or purchased a carb is that Pro Sys builds a conventionally modified carburetor delivering conventional results, not warranting the extent of the internet hype it receives in my opinion. I'll say that Pro Sys has an exceptional marketing team taking advantage of the newness of the internet as a means of marketing.

In unrelated news, the United Kingdom made it a crime for companies and marketers promoting a product or company to post "testimonial" on the internet posing as happy "unsolicited" customers. Here in this country you can pay some internet forums for either the right to plug your product, in effect being a paid advertiser and be protected from outside challenge or be allowed to have people promote your product acting as a happy customer providing unsolicited testimonials - and be protected from outside challenge. Thank God, Speedtalk doesn't fall into the category, if it did I surely wouldn't be here and I'm sure a lot of other guys wouldn't either.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[rmcomprandy]

Patrick is off to the Georgia race...but there is a hidden agenda here:

http://www.rmcompetition.com/Carburetors_.html

RM Competition has been doing carbs for 40 years.

How can a dyno operator make 3 dyno pulls and realize for some reason the carb wants 10 more jet sizes than the combination is requesting and the operator cannot tell something is wrong? At ten jet sizes you are typically popping and just carrying on..I've been to lots of dyno sessions, especially during the development of the SV1.

You should know that info on the first half pass warm up pull and you can't hurt anything on a half pull. 10 Jet sizes is pretty far out there compared to our typical jetting move of 2. But I realize that every combo is different and there are some freak combos out there (Glidden has a small block combo that we take 10 jets out of it... no matter the carb...call him..he'll tell ya'), so be ready to adjust if needed.

Our carbs use standard air bleeds we buy from Holley. Must be this was his rebuilt carb that some other builder tapped to an odd size that we conformed to.

Patrick is polite on the phones, I hear him all day. He would be tactful in your situation and not call you an idiot or anything like you implied.

Anyway, along those lines, when we developed our SV1 from scratch with all kinds of engines and just months and months of dyno pulls, we never lifted a ringland on any of our test engines or team engines.

Our 1150 carburetor has WON the Engine Masters Challenge and we are typically 1st or second every year.

RM Competition, I can understand you had issues and need a scapegoat on your experimental engine, but don't throw someone under the bus for it when the data you needed to keep an eye on your program during its development was right in front of you. That's just wrong.

Also congratulations to Spurgeon Adkins who last night debuted his Small Block Mustang and NEW SV1 and the NEW Halo Plate built for the SV1 at the ORTC race in Georgia. He ran a 5.25 at 134 mph with "out of the box" jetting. This is the fastest pass the car has ever made.

Steve Bolla
PRO SYSTEMS

You guys here can all believe what you want to believe; for some reason - reality isn't a good enough measuring stick for some people. I didn't need a "scapegoat" as everything ended OK.
I never talked directly with Patrick; he only professed about my ineptness as a third person to the engine and carburetor owner.
There is no hidden agenda except to inform those who might be interrested about what REALLY happened in THAT instance; (I hope they would have been more reactive to fixing a potential problem than trying to affix a reason so someone else gets to absorb the responsibility)... I don't know about now however, you should know that your modified carbs had 8-32 threaded air bleeds at that time not the standard 10-32.
I wasn't at the first dyno sessions where this "burn down" happened but, I was certainly called afterward because I was the one who recomended ProSystems.
I would hope that ProSystems has shown improvement since then ... it appears it certainly isn't with their personel choices.
Try your best to discredit me, ('cause that is what you seem to do best), and tell people what a jerk I am and try to deflect all responsibility and in any case never admit anything ... however, that won't alter the facts of the past.

I don't advertise to being in the carburetor buisness because I am just one guy, (a one man opperation), and there are to many other things to be taken care-of with building engines and modifyling carburetors for my engine customers, unless someone specificly asks.

Now Steve at "Pro Systems" can start his excuses and name calling again... I'm all done with this thread...!

[dammen8]

I don't know about now however, you should know that your modified carbs had 8-32 threaded air bleeds at that time not the standard 10-32.

Hmmm I have owned / seen a total of 5 prosystems carbs... ALL have had the correct air bleeds.. I just looked at my orginal build sheet from 2001 and it also lists 10-32 air bleeds...

Maybe the one you had was just a odd ball

[Eric68]

FYI on air bleeds . . .

If you build a Holley carb that originally came with a choke tower (milled off or not) there is no room for conventional 10-32 high speed air bleeds. An 8-32 brass set screw actually works VERY well and is a BUNCH cheaper to buy. I get 50 at a time for $6 from McMaster as opposed to $11 for 10 Holley bleeds.

Good catch Troy -- I forgot about the Carb Shop. They are still around.

PS. Please don't misconstrue this post as any attempt on my part to defend ProSystems

[Troy Patterson]

I've used 8-32" also on the older Holley's because like Eric68 said, that was all that would work. Also not defending Pro Sys.

I would also comment on the fact that so many people post comments about this or that carburetor modifier representing how good they are by saying no adjustments were necessary or the calibration was right on. It's great when we bench calibrate a carb and it is right on and so forth, but 90% of the time IF best performance is to be achieved, regardless how "right on" it seems, the carb needs to be tuned to the application in the car / racecar / truck whatever. Dyno tuning isn't going to cut it with most applications in my experience, it's to get you in the ballpark. But, I know there are lots and lots of people who believe the dyno, chassis or engine will do it. Dyno tuning alone leaves power on the table - in my opinion.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Keith Morganstein]

I've got to say there are a number of good / great carburetor builders besides these two mentioned here. BLP Products and Braswell come to mind as innovators with great products, I'm sure there are others not springing to mind at the moment. How about you guys telling us of all the carburetor modifiers and builders you know. Let's see how many of them there are.

Blake carbs have performed very well on the circle track stuff.


A lot of guys swear by Willy's carbs.

[Eric68]

I've used 8-32" also on the older Holley's because like Eric68 said, that was all that would work. Also not defending Pro Sys.

I would also comment on the fact that so many people post comments about this or that carburetor modifier representing how good they are by saying no adjustments were necessary or the calibration was right on. It's great when we bench calibrate a carb and it is right on and so forth, but 90% of the time IF best performance is to be achieved, regardless how "right on" it seems, the carb needs to be tuned to the application in the car / racecar / truck whatever. Dyno tuning isn't going to cut it with most applications in my experience, it's to get you in the ballpark. But, I know there are lots and lots of people who believe the dyno, chassis or engine will do it. Dyno tuning alone leaves power on the table - in my opinion.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Exactly. A calibration that is a little on the rich side and gives up a few HP usually leaves the racer with the impression that since throttle response is good that the tuneup must be right on.

I won't mention names, but I've seen one company in particular play games with small ID double step booster inserts on their Dominators to make sure the carb has good throttle response, but this approach also hurts flow -- 968 cfm is what I saw on the flow bench from what should have been a 1050 cfm carb! By the way the owner said it had great throttle response, but it went a whopping .5 slower on gas than it did on Alky!

[Drag Chevette]

Over the past years I have seen many carburetors come accross my bench for modification to E85.

and I have to tell you that out of my thurst for knowledge, I started to pin gauged and caliper every single one of them as they came in trying to see differences or similarities in them, I logged all of them into a file.
....alot of the carbs I see are nothing more than near stock holley calibrations that may have an emulsion tweaked or an air bleed changed.

I have done alot of Holley, Quickfuel, Prosystems, and Barry Grant stuff in my process of E85 conversion.
As well as some of the high end carbs as well. (never did a Braswell yet, but have used their parts)

I can tell you that I have seen carbs that have sold from a certan high end builder that are nothing more than a stock holley with the metering gaskets surface machined and the choke horn milled off.....this carb sold for $1400.00. (Yes, even stock untouched Holley metering blocks.)
when I told the owner it was a stock Holley calibration with some fancy machine work I could almost hear his blood boil.
At first he was mad at me, then he realized he got taken for $900 in carburetor machine work.

I also have seen major brand carbs that sell for $600 - $1200 that come with "In-House notched" floats...c'mon guys we can get notched floats for $10.00 dont be so cheap and put a $6 float that has been home notched. If your getting that much $$$ for a carb, do it right!
I have a box of these "In-House Notched floats" that I have been saving to sell on Ebay or at a swap meet as the Brand seems to have a big following for some reason....im sure the float will bring $10 used just because the sticker off the bowl.

One builder used screw in jet extensions that had a smaller ID than the jets they were trying to use, and the carb owner couldnt figure out why it wasnt responding to jet changes....again a major name brand!

Another high end builder who sells his carbs for $1200-$1600, had his holes that his bleeds screwed into were heading all over the place, metering blocks included....crap work!
It looked like it was done after 3 pots of coffee with a hand held rotary tool instead of a jig & drill press.

Im by no means perfect and my carbs that I build sometimes do have flaws as well, I do my best to make sure that I pay attention to the quality and the details, I dont cut corners by using "in-house notched floats" or not taking the time to measure my jet extensions....I try my best to use quality parts every time.
and I take the time to make sure things are right when I build them....and if there is a problem, I help the owner tune it out.

If your building a carb and think that its the best on the market out there just because someone told you its the best they had....dont get fooled by a big head and over inflated EGO.
I have had guys run the best ET of their lives by over .4 faster and call me to tell me that my carb conversion Is "the best carb they EVER owned", and then only later I realize I could have used a different style float that may have helped them get more H.P.
WE all make mistakes.....some get caught, some dont, and some get caught by others in the industry.

while there are many out there that have their tips and tricks of the week, their new innovative units, their fancy powder coated pretty carbs, And the fancy sales gimmicks, when all is said and done its all about personal choice and satisfaction of the customer....and if the customer is happy with the product they recieved then its good enough.

while the carb industry and engine builders know the truth about the tuning that goes into some of these carbs, when its said and done the customer is who has the final word and it doesnt matter what we tell them, they will continue to buy just because someone said it worked well or it was MARKETED WELL!

IF a customer buys a carb from someone they think is a good and reputable builder, and they believe that this carb will make them go faster (even if its not tuned 100% for their car), and they spent $1000+ for a CARB AND A FANCY DO-DAD to go with it....they will most likely not admit that they spent $1000 on a piece of crap....and to them, the $1000 carb will be the best damn carb out there as they will not want to admit a mistake.....well not until it has went back to the builder 3 times.

A long long time ago I spent $650 on a Preditor Carb, and for 3 years it was the best carb out there...I even sold 4-5 of them to other racers.
It would barely get me down the track, but my pride (and pockets) would not let me admit defeat .
...one day I threw on a Stock Holley and the Preditor went to the curb and never came back.

No matter whos carb your buying, QFT, Holley, Proform, BG, Prosystems, or even the higher end carbs,

all im saying is that no one is without flaws......Caveat emptor!

and if the public held us builders to a higher standard....caveat venditor....many would have to close their doors for good!

caveat emptor ~ Tacit warning to the buyers that the sellers are not bound to volunteer negative information about the items they are selling. It is assumed that the buyer takes all risk of any loss due to defects in the goods or property being bought.

caveat venditor ~ Tacit warning to the sellers that they will be held liable if the sold items are found defective in any way or vary from the specifications.


have a good day.......

[69-CHVL]

I had a QF 780 on my prior 454, and wasnt impressed. Yeah it looked real nice, but my Holley 770 that it replaced ran much better. Their customer support was nothing to write home about, but Jeg's support was much better when I sent the carb back

I had 2 prosystems, and they both ran excelelnt overall, and would use again. Have to tell you though, those Holley HP's run real good too!!!

That said, everybody should try a different carb once in a while, you would be suprised how different they all "run", and in some cases it makes you feel like you have a different motor. Too easy to swap carb. Wonder how many folks motors run ratty, and they blame the cam. But in reality, the carb sucks - that's what happened to me. Changed carbs, feels like a 10* smaller cam was installed.

[Troy Patterson]

I've got to say that carburetors are one of those areas that seem to be easily misunderstood. So much is blamed on the carb that isn't the fault of the carb. The single most important thing when it comes to a carb isn't all the hoopla and this or that, it's the responsiveness and the power it makes.

I've worked a lot of pot metal and I can say that I've encountered all kinds of things with it and I"ve made all kinds of mistakes. I trashed $400.00 center sections and $100.00 metering blocks and all it took was one tenth of one second of the slightest distraction at the wrong time. I can say that I noticed some years back that there was an inconsistency in the softness of Holley's pot metal, not from one casting to another, but within one casting and a whole slue of other issues causing variations in whatever work I was doing - including drilling and taping air bleed holes - fortunately, since the HP's came along we don't need to bother with that one. Not saying there was / is anything wrong with Holleys.

I'd be careful about pointing fingers though about something pre- HP though, I got lot's of trade-ins along the way that I rebuilt and sold that I reworked to my specs for those customers who didn't have a large budget and were content purchasing a reworked / rebuilt carb, but who nevertheless got as much performance as they could afford. I know other carburetor modifiers do the same thing - what else you gonna do with them? I'd hate to be judged by those carbs purchased by those budged individuals as the extent of my workmanship. I also always balanced performance delivered for the price, giving the most bang for the buck I could - rather than add a billet metering block cause it was cool looking - but didn't offer any performance advantage. But then again, there are always those customers who want all the looks more than performance, or who can afford the best of everything.

If I were going to complain about anything, it'd be the undeserved reputations and belief a brand was better than it actually was.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[MadBill]

...That said, everybody should try a different carb once in a while, you would be suprised how different they all "run", and in some cases it makes you feel like you have a different motor. Too easy to swap carb. Wonder how many folks motors run ratty, and they blame the cam. But in reality, the carb sucks - that's what happened to me. Changed carbs, feels like a 10* smaller cam was installed.

Great tip!
Example 1: I had 600 vac Holleys on a GM crossram in my '70 -1/2 Camaro and it seemed to run very well -until I borrowed a well set up pair of 650 DPs. Transformed the car! A ton more mid range and about ripped my head off on the top end; 7500 RPM on stock rods in a blink... So I rigged a pair of micro switches on the secondaries of my carbs and found they didn't ever open, even at 7,500...

Example 2: My buddy put together a mild quadrajet-equipped 427 in a glass '32 coupe. Ran very nice, no bogs, hooked up great on 295/50 tires.. but it really shouldn't have with that torque and vehicle weight. I hack sawed 3/16" off the accel pump pushrod to increase the shot and now it would fry the hides at about 2/3rds throttle...