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carb rejetting gas to E85, timing?

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carb rejetting gas to E85, timing?

Postby coolchevy » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:47 pm

I am currently converting a customer engine from blown 496 to pure drag race 496. He still wants to cruise once a month through town and wants to use cheaper 100 octane pump gas. I talked him into using E85 instead.

Engine will have around 13:1 compression finally, Mike did a solid roller cam for it, we plan to have peak hp at 6800 and shift at 7100rpm, it is a light weight Chevy Vega

I have a Methanol 1050 Dominator here, would anyone have some ballpark figures regarding timing and jetting for E85?

Race gas here is an abnormous amount, E85 just makes economical sense as Methanol is not allowed in Street Eliminator the guy wants to run in.
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Postby Ron Golden » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:07 pm

Call BLP carbs in Orlando. They told me the calibration is completely different fron straight gas.

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Postby jmarkaudio » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:08 pm

Jetting alone won't work, the mainwell passages and booster pins are too big. Idle jets will be too large as well. You may get it to run.... just not right. QuickFuel has E85 kits, and Drag Chevette on DRR does conversions.
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Postby Drag Chevette » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:11 pm

jmarkaudio wrote:Jetting alone won't work, the mainwell passages and booster pins are too big. Idle jets will be too large as well. You may get it to run.... just not right. QuickFuel has E85 kits, and Drag Chevette on DRR does conversions.


Drag Chevette here...

Hey Mark, thanks for the plug...way cool...thanks buddy!

yes, he is exactly right, mainwells are too large, booster pins, idle curcuits, just about everything is too big....even if you do a conversion and dont change the needed stuff, it will be sluggish and you will find yourself adding more jet and larger boosters to cover up a mistake.....bad idea as it throws the fuel curve into a mess.

your better off sending it to me, let me make the needed swap of the parts....ill test it, send it back to you then we can tune it for your car.

I get $445 (US)( + shipping) to do the Dominator swap, but after Jan 1,2009...my prices jump....so act fast.

email me at Myracecarshop@yahoo.com
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Postby Drag Chevette » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:20 pm

Ron Golden wrote:Call BLP carbs in Orlando. They told me the calibration is completely different fron straight gas.

Ron


Bingo....this is correct as well....

I buy alot of my parts from BLP, and they know their stuff....but they do not have alot if any E85 in orlando so im not sure they have "real world" testing....cant say for sure.

I know that Joe, mark, have always treated me well....

you cant use a gas carb, you cant use a methanol carb....and just buy a kit.

the carb must be switched to run E85 only....and neither of the previous two have the passages needed to make it work properly..

if you buy a kit to convert and just put it in....then your not getting 100% from your carb.

I have fixed so many of these "I put a e85 kit in it" that Im about to scream.....
I would rather do it from start to finish, that way I know and can document what has been done to your carb and keep a record.
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Re: carb rejetting gas to E85, timing?

Postby Drag Chevette » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:30 pm

coolchevy wrote:
I have a Methanol 1050 Dominator here, would anyone have some ballpark figures regarding timing and jetting for E85?
.


as for timing.......

Leave it where it was on gas.

heres why,
the ethanol burns at a much lower BTU than gas, and the Ethanol is also much harder to ignite than the gasoline....

when your spark plug fires, it lights the gasoline cells first, this then lights off the ethanol part of the fuel which burns much slower and longer...

now, you mess with timing you have changed where the gas starts to burn, bad idea for performance....thats why you leave it where the gas timing was.

now, as the ethanol lights, it burns past top dead center and keeps pushing the piston down the cylinder as the fuel burns and the air expands...longer.

all gasoline is done buring and the flame is gone within the top 1-1.5" of the cylinder from the head, thus the wear ring in the engine block. the rest is expanding air.....

the E85 (ethanol part) will continue to burn as the piston is driven down, which will cause less wear on the engine and make for better ring seal and power, not to mention the added torque of the longer burn...


ready for me to do your carb yet?.....lol
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Postby mike ramirez racing » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:47 am

drag chevette, good info to know thanks. I bought stuff from BLP they offer parts nobody can find. It was worth it.
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Drag Chevette....

Postby PRO SYSTEMS » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:18 am

your theory is flawed. Re read your post and correct your statement, I think you'll see it when you re-read it..

Also, Drag Chevette, I assume you have wet-flow or dyno equipment to verify that you have built a proper fuel curve for the customer, otherwise they might as well buy the "kit" and do it themselves. ??? If you do not, then you are guessing and folks are getting ripped off and that is damaging to everyone in our business' reputation.

Fuel curve is extremely important as it DIRECTLY effects the consistency in performance and the vehicles overall performance.

If you (as a customer) are installing a "kit" you should be aware that these are not optimized programs simply air to fuel ratio "kits" that get you in the ball park (oftentimes have very wavy fuel curves that are tough to predict and tune).

For true consistency from these kits or shops that have no real technology, you THEN need to either install some wide band data acquisition on your vehicle and map the fuel curve and spend the time correcting/tuning it yourself. Or simply send it to a shop that has wet flow technology so the work is done before you get it.

Many folks have gotten a bad taste in their mouth on E85 because of "kits", we get them in the shop everyday.

So if you are having trouble jetting your carb or the vehicle is inconsistent, then contact a company with some technology and get this situation corrected.

Unfortunately, its oftentimes cheaper to have sent it in to someone in the first place.

However, sometimes it works out...its truly a gamble.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS

"Home of the highest powered naturally aspirated E85 engine on the planet".

1264 h.p. through the mufflers.
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Re: Drag Chevette....

Postby Drag Chevette » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:56 am

PRO SYSTEMS wrote:your theory is flawed. Re read your post and correct your statement, I think you'll see it when you re-read it..

I have re-read it, I must be missing something ....please let me know what I missed....point out my flaw on the public forum.

I have studied E85/Ethanol for the last 6 years, If Im incorrect on some of my findings please let me know....Im up for a healthy debate about E85 fuel. Which is the only fuel I build carburetors for.

Also, Drag Chevette, I assume you have wet-flow or dyno equipment to verify that you have built a proper fuel curve for the customer, otherwise they might as well buy the "kit" and do it themselves. ???

I agree that a wet flow bench is a vital tool for carb tuning, and someday I too will have one and use it as a base line setting.
but for now im going with what I know works, and what has been track tested (mother approved)
If a customer finds the curve to be off, I work with them to correct the problem....so your saying when I have my bench I wont need to do this anymore?...i dont think so, I will continue to work with my customers.
If you do not, then you are guessing and folks are getting ripped off and that is damaging to everyone in our business' reputation.

you may see it as they are getting ripped off, I see it as they are getting a conversion that is better than any kit, which they were going to do anyway and to me this is good customer service.

I dont disagree that people get ripped off, that why I tell everyone to do their research and find out what they are getting for the money they spend, the ultimate choice for a carburetor belongs to the customer.

all I know is that My conversions are better than the "Kit".
your carbs may or may not be better than mine...we have not done any testing on yours so I wouldnt know and neither would you!
If I offer my customers a service at a reasonable price, then thats ok too.
Fuel curve is extremely important as it DIRECTLY effects the consistency in performance and the vehicles overall performance.

YES, you are correct....LM2 tuning has played a part in several of my carb modifications, and though I am not yet a large company...I have done many carburetors and have yet to have any returned to me for repairs.

Pro systems deals with many types of carburetors, and they have been successful in producing a great product.
I however do 1 type of carburetor, I do only E85.... guess you can say I specialize in E85...???
I focus on what I know, and im offfering a good service for my customers, those that want to switch to E85 at an affordable price.

If you (as a customer) are installing a "kit" you should be aware that these are not optimized programs simply air to fuel ratio "kits" that get you in the ball park (oftentimes have very wavy fuel curves that are tough to predict and tune).

thank you, I have been telling people this for 6 years, glad to hear someone else agrees.
For true consistency from these kits or shops that have no real technology, you THEN need to either install some wide band data acquisition on your vehicle and map the fuel curve and spend the time correcting/tuning it yourself. Or simply send it to a shop that has wet flow technology so the work is done before you get it.

OK, this is an Insult to me.....Yeah, your right Patrick....you should have all the business....the rest of us are Idiots that dont have a clue...technology is a good thing...and I agree your carbs are some of the best out there...but your not the only kid in the game...and sometimes good old fashion hard work, and real world testing is just as good as modern technology.
Many folks have gotten a bad taste in their mouth on E85 because of "kits", we get them in the shop everyday.

yeah me too....i dont like kits....
So if you are having trouble jetting your carb or the vehicle is inconsistent, then contact a company with some technology and get this situation corrected.
yep, you should do that....you should send your carb to a company that will come on a message board and slam someone for trying to make a living doing what he knows works....
Pro System or myself, again I say research what your getting for the money spent....
Just because some one has equipment (technology) doesnt always make them better... when it comes to E85, I know my carbs.

Unfortunately, its oftentimes cheaper to have sent it in to someone in the first place.
However, sometimes it works out...its truly a gamble.

this is very true, it is a gamble, you can send it to Pro systems and have it done with technology and pay for the flow bench while its there....
or have the little guy build it, provide customer service after the sale, talk to you on the phone and help you figure out what it is doing on your car so that it can perform to your satisfaction.

flow benches dont know your engines needs.....I dont know how Pro Systems does their follow up, and thats not my concern.
what is my concern is the customer support I give before , during , and after the sale...

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS
"Home of the highest powered naturally aspirated E85 engine on the planet".
1264 h.p. through the mufflers.


Mark Sullens
"Home of a 9 second Chevette, thats very budget and happens to use E85"
580 hp , open pipes.

LOL....I have to laugh at this post to think that a company with the size and money that pro systems has is worried about whether or not I screw up someones carb.....
I understand that there are many carb builders, some good and some bad. Some provice excellent customer servcie and some don't.

Please don't get me wrong, I will never intentionally talk bad about someone else way of making a living. Plus I personally heard that pro systems does a fine job, and if I attacked you in any way, my apologies! If i did it was only because I felt as if you were attacking me. But in turn I wish you would have checked me, my carbs and my customer service out before you attack my reputation.

I look forward to further debates, and know that there is room enough in this world for more than 1 E85 carb builder...

feel free to call me if you have any E85 questions:
Mark Sullens
573 694-4088
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Postby coolchevy » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:16 pm

ahhhhh Gentlemen..........did not want to stirr up controversies here.

Actually, sending a carb back/forth for the matter of being "rebuild", re-kitted" whatever is not cost effective for me. I'd rather get a new carb ready to be bolted on.

Engine in Questions is a 13:1 CR, 496 BBC with roughly 750-800hp when done going into a light weight Vega.

I simply have no E85 experience, I actually believe that we have less then 8 of them in the whole country. My customer is from Germany and he has access to a view within his area and it is a cheap race fuel for Street Eliminator where "pump gas" has to be used.

I am open for quotes, all I know is that apparently Quickfuel makes nice E85 carbs.
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Postby Hendrens Racing Engines » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:38 pm

Other than the ones we build for our house car use, Willy's and Stealth have been the most consistent E85 carbs on my dyno. far closer off the shelf than the last two Quick Fuels we had to completely re calibrate. Bill
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Re: Drag Chevette....

Postby new engine builder » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:44 pm

Drag Chevette wrote:LOL....I have to laugh at this post to think that a company with the size and money that pro systems has is worried about whether or not I screw up someones carb.....
I understand that there are many carb builders, some good and some bad. Some provice excellent customer servcie and some don't.

Please don't get me wrong, I will never intentionally talk bad about someone else way of making a living. Plus I personally heard that pro systems does a fine job, and if I attacked you in any way, my apologies! If i did it was only because I felt as if you were attacking me. But in turn I wish you would have checked me, my carbs and my customer service out before you attack my reputation.

I look forward to further debates, and know that there is room enough in this world for more than 1 E85 carb builder...

feel free to call me if you have any E85 questions:
Mark Sullens
573 694-4088
Patrick may just be tired of working on your carbs. :lol:
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Postby PRO SYSTEMS » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:02 pm

OK Mr. Sullens. School is in:


E85 burns faster than gasoline (not slower as you stated) which is one of the reasons it is such a powerful fuel.

This faster burn rate offers E85 much better efficiency as compared to gasoline and as a result produces more exhaust gas at the proper crank angle for the same given weight of fuel air consumed. Not an extended push as you described (you have that backwards as well).

Also E85 likes more ignition advance (not the same as you stated) and increased fuel delivery during peak torque.

This data is a direct result of collected data from cylinder pressure sensors and dyno/track data commissioned and performed by our research and development dept. I normally don't release this information. But when I see a B.S. artist stating incorrect assumptions as facts, something needs to be done.

You can "study E85" (your words) all you want, but without equipment and the know how to understand what you are seeing (you have several things backwards...I gave you a chance to see them), you are simply B.S.-ing your way around the business and guys like you with no equipment and false assumptions are damaging to the reputation of the true talents in the business.

I also stated you have no way of confirming that you properly built these folks carbs and you confirmed that by stating that if the customer has a fuel curve concern etc...you can "figure it out on his car". as stated earlier you have no equipment that can verify your work. However, if the customer doesn't have widebands and data acquisition, then you will never be able to know if you ever built it or tuned it correctly. You will only know that at some point in time or on the average of the run, the air to fuel ratio was in the ball park. Hopefully he has some pistons left.

Save your B.S. for the uninformed. If you showed up to a tuning gig with the folks I run with, your duffle bag would be flying out the trailer door and a driver would be hauling you back to the airport before the headers got cool.

Sorry for being so blunt folks, but the talents in the business get sick of taking heat for folks like this guy.

They cost all of us money.

Patrick James

www.prosystemsracing.com
727-490-5717
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Postby Eric68 » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:05 pm

Wow. That's quite an attack on a guy that I see is just trying to help. I know Mark personally and have spent some time on the phone with him since I have raced on E85 for a couple years now. I can tell you he is a good guy and knowledgeable about using E85. Not wanting to get into the fray here at all, just felt the need to say a kind word about a good guy.

As for the original poster, I am working on a 1050 currently and I have not run it yet. I am starting with 92F/104R jets and a .081 PVCR (front only). Main well size, cross channel, and booster size are going to be spec'd per Mark's (Drag Chevette) recommendation. Don't feel comfortable sharing his information on this public forum so I will suggest that you contact Mark directly for this information. That is very ball park and I expect my base tuneup to be on the rich side.

When it is done I will be tuning it with my LM1 -- my expectations are that it will be a bit rich with that jetting. Especially with the cold weather E85 mix here in Michigan (high gas content).
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Postby jmarkaudio » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:57 pm

Cool Chevy, sorry this got out of hand here. Last I spoke with the guys at BLP they had not spent much time with E85, but I can ask if that has changed as they are here in my town. And right or wrong Patrick, I think you could have handled your responses with a little less attack towards Mark. Just because he is doing carbs on a smaller scale doesn't mean they they don't work well for bracket racing, where consistency and behavior are more important than gaining a few hundredths. Wet flow and dyno's are great, but the circumstances once it's on the car can at times can dramatically alter a carbs behavior. That is where service after the sale helps. Differences in scoop designs and carb placement underneath, engine size, cam profile and heads can all play into air/fuel requirements.
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