Dart vs Brodix vs AFR cylinder heads

[revolutionary]

Well, we all come up with different numbers when jumping from bench to bench so I'll show you what the following heads flow on my sf600. You can get your own conclusions from there. Keep in mind the chambers on the Dart heads need a significant amount of work if you want to run them otherwise you lose a ton of low-mid lift flow and chamber efficiency.

To make this easier to read I''l just show flow numbers at .200/.300/.400/.500/.600 on intake then exhaust

Dart alum 200 (pre-platinum)
107/156/201/237/259
97/131/163/171/171

Dart alum 215
123/172/214/242/256
106/141/173/188/196

Dart Iron 230 (49cc chambers)
119/168/213/245/266 Kept increasing above .650 where 215 didn't
111/145/169/183/189

Pro Filer 210
127/183/232/261/277
102/138/158/171/177 (bad lip under ex seat)

Pro Action 200 (RHS)
128/178/218/249/255
111/150/177/196/202

AFR195 eliminator
149/210/247/265/265
111/164/195/210/219

AFR210 eliminator
147/207/248/280/287
122/182/211/222/228

AFR heads have the best chambers of the bunch by far. The next best head I'd use would be the Pro-Filer 210 but work on the exhaust port a little.

[movealong]

thanks Daryl. who makes the pro-flier? also,were the afr heads the comp version? thanks

does this more airflow equal more hp usually? did you also dyno or is this just airflow on a bench?

[revolutionary]

Forgot to mention I don't have any sheets on unported / out of the box Brodix stuff handy so I can't really give a good comparison on that.


Pro-Filer makes Pro-Filer.

Usually (and please don't beat me up, you guys know what I'm saying) every cfm increase adds about 2hp to a decent v8.

[CamKing]

We have a new 377 for our 2200 lb Vega, need an off the shelf cylinder head, running comp cams roller 260/268 .660 cam that he already has.

With a cam that big, I'd want a head that takes advantage of it.

Here's the numbers on our new cnc ported Dart Platinum heads(226cc).

.100": 73/55
.200": 139/110
.300": 197/149
.400": 242/181
.500": 273/207
.600": 297/216
.700": 304/226
.800": 309/230

These #'s are with a 2.08" intake valve, and a 1.60" Exhaust valve.

[Rommel Racing]

Forgot to mention I don't have any sheets on unported / out of the box Brodix stuff handy so I can't really give a good comparison on that.


Pro-Filer makes Pro-Filer.

Usually (and please don't beat me up, you guys know what I'm saying) every cfm increase adds about 2hp to a decent v8.

Thanks Daryl,

The reason I asked the question, is because I am currently putting together a 420sbc pump gas street motor for a customer that bought a set of the Brodix JJ210 cnc'd heads.

These are the "Brodix" flow numbers, .200-.600 lift.

148,217,260,278,284
110,166,200,214,219

How far off are the published flow numbers(Dart,AFR) from your bench, on the heads you listed?

I'm just trying to get an idea on where these may really flow, I'm sure Brodix may have fudged the numbers in their favor.

I will say that the intake runners have a unique shape to them, so maybe there is more to it than just numbers.

Here are a few pics I just took.






Thanks,
Steve

P.S. the AFR Eliminator heads I used on the last 383 I bulit, looked to be a little nicer in the cnc department!

[SStrokerAce]

Well if they are too much money, then which cylinder head on the list. we can definitely afford those. thanks

Don't have a answer for you there.... a 215cc or 230cc Dart with VJ work will do better than the other heads you are looking at.

Those Brodix pictures just posted leave a little to be desired! At least the old Weld Tech T1 head they had before was a better piece than those!

One more tid bit airflowdevelopment aka Dennis sent me:

"Just had a fresh set of AFR 210 eliminators over the bench went 282. Darts BIG cnc program goes just a tick over 300. most everything else is stuck in that area (275-300). Joe's head goes 322-324.... Velocity Profile is correct, Cross Sectional Area schedule is correct, and it sounds perfect."

That's a big compliment to the heads.

Honestly the heads I showed you and your other choices aren't in the same league. The goal was to design a steel valve 23° STD port head that everything was done RIGHT on. I'm talking around $3K for castings, valves and labor... that's not with springs/parts and assembly. The heads you asked about in the first post are around $1500 complete. There is a lot of HP difference between them as well, probably to the tune of 5mph in the 1/4.

Bret

[Tokyo Torquer]

Bret,

What I understand you are offering is a head porting service for the dart heads.

Do you do them by hand or do you use a CNC program? If the later, do you own your own CNC machine?

On the Dart 200's you mention, what is the final size/ CC of the intake port that achieves the flow mentioned in this thread?

Do you also offer the same for Dart 230 Platinums?

thanks,

mike

[SStrokerAce]

Bret,

What I understand you are offering is a head porting service for the dart heads.

Do you do them by hand or do you use a CNC program? If the later, do you own your own CNC machine?

On the Dart 200's you mention, what is the final size/ CC of the intake port that achieves the flow mentioned in this thread?

Do you also offer the same for Dart 230 Platinums?

thanks,

mike

Mike,

Actually no. It's a COMPLETE head, not just a service. The castings when they come here have to have specific details or they aren't going to work and it has to be a certain Dart casting so it's not offered on the 230cc casting.

This is the end result how it ships



The volume of the runner has never been measured because it honestly doesn't matter in any head unless we are talking Super Stock. The cross sectional area in each place along the port is the key and whatever volume that turns out to be is what it turns out to be.

The head should be in the 220-230cc range and it moves that kind of wind thru a 2.040" valve.

Bret

[Tokyo Torquer]

Thanks Bret.. so we are talking that kind of flow with a standard valve spacing (no 60:40 spacing) and no raised runners?

2.040" intake valve? I havent seen that seen before, any reason for not going with a 2.08 or 2.1"?

What size chambers do you sell them with?

Do those intakes take a #1206 intake gasket?

mike

[SStrokerAce]

Thanks Bret.. so we are talking that kind of flow with a standard valve spacing (no 60:40 spacing) and no raised runners?

2.040" intake valve? I havent seen that seen before, any reason for not going with a 2.08 or 2.1"?

What size chambers do you sell them with?

Do those intakes take a #1206 intake gasket?

mike

Standard valve spacing and port height is what I quoted from Dennis earlier

"Just had a fresh set of AFR 210 eliminators over the bench went 282. Darts BIG cnc program goes just a tick over 300. most everything else is stuck in that area (275-300). Joe's head goes 322-324.... Velocity Profile is correct, Cross Sectional Area schedule is correct, and it sounds perfect."

Yes that's 40cfm more than the new 210 AFR!

The port opening is rather tall so at least a 1206 gasket if not a custom one cut out of gasket stock like a 1244 where you can match them.

Chamber size depends as well... I have to look thru the notes but it depends on the bore size, version of the casting and amount of milling.

The 2.040" valve was developed to be used on a 4.030" bore and it "fits" the head the best in terms of throat size and chamber size, not to mention they are much lighter. Compared to a 2.080" Manely Race Flow the valves we run are 20g's lighter, that's a big help in a hyd roller motor. I'm sure we could even do a hollow stem version that was lighter than that! There are a few other reasons, but like runner volume and flow curve it doesn't really make a difference to the average guy... what matters is how they run.

Bret

[new engine builder]

Could someone please post the price of all these cylinder heads loaded with the same quality of valves,locks,springs,retainers,etc.
I would really like to be able to compare "apples to apples".
Thanks.

[randy331]

Bret, Joe had sent me some info on a Dart 215 he had developed a cnc program for. He used a 2.05 in valve, and had a finished port volume of 222-223cc.
Do you know if someone is still doing that head?

Randy

[SStrokerAce]

Bret, Joe had sent me some info on a Dart 215 he had developed a cnc program for. He used a 2.05 in valve, and had a finished port volume of 222-223cc.
Do you know if someone is still doing that head?

Randy

Randy,

That's what this turned into..... he drove me nuts doing 3 different ports for this!

Bret

[SStrokerAce]

Could someone please post the price of all these cylinder heads loaded with the same quality of valves,locks,springs,retainers,etc.
I would really like to be able to compare "apples to apples".
Thanks.

That's hard to do....

AFR's come with a 8mm valve and different spring combinations
Brodix runs a 11/32 valve and different spring combinations
Dart runs a 11/32 valve and different spring combiantions

Then you get something custom like I showed you and the price of the valves alone is going to be a lot more than what the shelf heads use.

In the end you are buying a setup of ports, VJ, castings, valves and springs... hence why I don't quote a head with the springs because you can't know what you need untill you know the cam.

The worst thing is customer getting a set of complete heads that you have to go thru and change the parts on for them to perform well.

Bret

[Fatman]

Bret

Ever had these heads on an NA drag combination? If so, can you share the combination and how they performed?

Just saw the 125mph fbody you mentioned in yourearlier post. Anything else?