Dart vs Brodix vs AFR cylinder heads

[ROG30Y]

Hey Tony, just out of curiosity i see the intake have that vain that seems to be similar to the LS1style heads.does this seem to only work on your SBC stuff?i dont see it on any of the ford heads.

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

Hey Tony, just out of curiosity i see the intake have that vain that seems to be similar to the LS1style heads.does this seem to only work on your SBC stuff?i dont see it on any of the ford heads.

You may in the future but we would have to modify existing tooling to implement that feature. With the proper bowl shape, chamber, and valvejob I have gotten slightly higher levels of efficiency incorporating the proper shaped wing/air dam in some of our new designs but like anything else its not something you can blindly say would work in every application.

Ed...long time no speak and yes, hibernation was getting boring.....LOL

We can catch up at PRI

Tony

[airflowdevelop]

Hey Tony, just out of curiosity i see the intake have that vain that seems to be similar to the LS1style heads.does this seem to only work on your SBC stuff?i dont see it on any of the ford heads.

You may in the future but we would have to modify existing tooling to implement that feature. With the proper bowl shape, chamber, and valvejob I have gotten slightly higher levels of efficiency incorporating the proper shaped wing/air dam in some of our new designs but like anything else its not something you can blindly say would work in every application.

Ed...long time no speak and yes, hibernation was getting boring.....LOL

We can catch up at PRI

Tony

Tony,
Any chance you have a demo head laying around? would love to test it.

Thanks
Dennis

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

Tony,
Any chance you have a demo head laying around? would love to test it.

Thanks
Dennis

Dennis...

Check your PM's

Regards,
Tony

[revolutionary]

Tony, as a side note to the flow numbers I posted, after flowing the AFR210 out of the box, I spent less than half an hour smoothing the transition line on the all the intake SSR and the numbers went to 299.7@ .600 and 307 @ .650. But, all the numbers there were directly out of the box, as delivered.

[MELWAY]

When you smooth the SSR. Is there any shape change or just cleaning cutter marks with a cartridge roll???

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

When you smooth the SSR. Is there any shape change or just cleaning cutter marks with a cartridge roll???

Im sure he is refering to the CNC transition point on top of the short turn which occasionally leaves a very slight transition lip that on a high speed port design can create some sensitivity in the upper flow ranges. It's actually a difficult/challenging spot to machine (where the CNC porting tool that enters on the bowl side meets the tool path from the CNC porting tool entering from the entrance of the head).

We have incorporated some new tricks into the latest tool paths of our 210 and 227 heads to minimize and eliminate that issue which incidentally is very common to most CNC ported heads.

The head I shot the pics of in this post had the benefit of that new program modification and represents one of the smaller features of improvement I alluded to im my longer first post.

Tony

[Erland Cox]

Hello Tony! A really good looking head. The vane curving on the intake. Is it a wet flow thing or something that is tested on a dyno? It would be interesting to hear exactly what it does compared to a straight vane. Erland.

[revolutionary]

Just clean up with a cartridge roll

[scottcleaver]

I would like to move this back to a single question if I may. I have the Dart 320 aluminum heads. We mostly agree the intake flows in the 294 neighborhood at 700 lift on a 4.155 bore 406 ci motor. Is it a reasonable task to get the head to flow in the 310 range without a fortune being spent or would I be better off heading in a different direction?

[randy331]

(a port that flows alot of air thru a small hole has a high airspeed, more inertia for better cylinder fill, and usually makes good power and accelerates harder than a larger less efficient port).

So more flow thru a smaller hole is ALWAYS good?

Isn't there a limit to this?

Does it matter where in the port the smallest part is?

Randy

[randy331]

Is it a reasonable task to get the head to flow in the 310 range?

It's reasonable to get 310 cfm out of a 230 Dart head, what you do to the port, to get that cfm, will affect how much that additional flow helps power.

Randy

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

I would like to move this back to a single question if I may. I have the Dart 320 aluminum heads. We mostly agree the intake flows in the 294 neighborhood at 700 lift on a 4.155 bore 406 ci motor. Is it a reasonable task to get the head to flow in the 310 range without a fortune being spent or would I be better off heading in a different direction?

My nickels worth of advice is to pay more attention to the numbers that matter. Even a .740 lift cam probably only allows the valves to see 10-15 crank degrees at .700 (after lash and deflection)....but spends probably 80 degree's at .650+ (maybe more). And if your running a more conventional lift cam (say gross around .675) you had better look closer at the .600 and below figures.

That point aside, if your port is already 230 ish cc's how many cc's will it need to be to flow your target CFM....its already a very big port. Sure with the right guy wielding the grinder it will go 300+ but do you want a 238 cc port that goes 305 CFM (at a usable lift point) or a 210 cc port. Hell, for that matter, you could consider our 195 cc Comp package that actually achieves over 300 CFM and does it at .600 lift making that number even more impressive but better yet alot more useful in producing more power (that head is an ass kicker for a small/medium runner design that took months to complete I might add....and a good story attached but now is not the time or place!).

Anyway....IMO its all about how much you value airspeed into the equation. Some people place alot of emphasis on it (I'm in that camp), while others don't think it matters in an all out race situation. I would also see how strong the exhaust flow looks as well....that should also be factored into the cost/decision making process as well.

-Tony

Hello Tony! A really good looking head. The vane curving on the intake. Is it a wet flow thing or something that is tested on a dyno? It would be interesting to hear exactly what it does compared to a straight vane. Erland.

Thanks...alot of time in the design and execution of that product. I'm not going to go into alot of detail about the vane shape but I would say it helped a handful of parameters we feel is important. It helped dry flow a fair amount as well when combined with the right valvejob and bowl shape. It also quieted down the port at lifts we feel represent the bulk of what the end users are likely to utilize. In short I was able to produce a higher flowing port and still retain a moderate cross sectional area meeting my 210 cc product goal by mixing that feature with a few others that complimented one another.

Regards,
Tony

[nevdos]

Hello all,
I happen to own a set of early 227cc comp ported version AFR eliminators that were sent back to AFR be touched up.
I will keep the actual flow numbers to myself,but the heads seem to work very well to say the least.
We run the car up in Denver,at density alt of over 9000 ft at times and,on a mid compression 380 in sb,with net lift 600 inch cam,unported intake ,and only 4.30 gears,it runs mid tens at almost 130 mph, and does this in the summer heat,when once again its way over 8000ft density alt.
I see alot of nine second combos discussed on here and other sites as well, that are way more radical,bigger cubes,etc,as i know this car at a sea level track,say at Englishtown,or in Orlando,etc, will run well into the nines.
Also these heads flow almost 12cfm better at 700 lift, so i know with a ported intake,a bigger cam,and especially on a 4.155" or larger bore they will make some more power, and propel this car to the low tens up here.
That would be a 9.50 car or better at sea level with $2000 off the shelf cylinder heads
Pretty good if you ask me
Which by the way,i have built just such a motor(400 based bore size,lots of compression but still a rather small cam by some standards), and it made over 100hp more than the motor described in this text did,but thats another story

P.S. I owe noone anything, so all i say on here is my personal findings, as i dont work for AFR, ,no do i know Tony at AFR personally(although i have spoken to him, and he has been kind enough to see that his product was to my satisfaction)
Nevdos

[scottcleaver]

I am so uneducated to all of this but somehow I knew it would come back to port velocity and the as cast port size being a problem.

Tony,
The advertised exhaust port flow numbers on these heads is as follows
.600 205cfm
.700 207cfm
I would like to try and understand the importance of the exhaust flow numbers as part of the equation