Darin Morgan Pro-Stock Ford Head......

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

More like a canted valve head like a Cleveland 9.5° X 3.5°. All canted valve Pro Stock heads have evolved from the Cleveland not the BBC.
I would agree Cleveland valve angles are similar but I doubt they were involved in the evolution, the head bolt patterns are very different which influences the position and shape of the ports.

I think the evolution was more like BBC, spread port, symmetrical.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
Gary Blair
Pro
Pro
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:01 pm
Location: Pylesville, Md.

Post by Gary Blair »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
More like a canted valve head like a Cleveland 9.5° X 3.5°. All canted valve Pro Stock heads have evolved from the Cleveland not the BBC.
I would agree Cleveland valve angles are similar but I doubt they were involved in the evolution, the head bolt patterns are very different which influences the position and shape of the ports.

I think the evolution was more like BBC, spread port, symmetrical.
The DRCE series 1 , 2, & 3 are symetrical. The early DRCE 1 exhaust had a Mullen style Hi Port Cleveland twisted floor.

As far as evolution the GM heads evolved from 26° to the DRCE 14-16° to what now is 9 1/2° Cleveland.
SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

As far as evolution the GM heads evolved from 26° to the DRCE 14-16° to what now is 9 1/2° Cleveland.
What about the Pontiac spread port heads like Butch Leal used to run?
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
Lem Evans
Expert
Expert
Posts: 541
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:58 pm
Location: Livermore Ky

Post by Lem Evans »

Regardless of Butch or whoever...the Cleveland package was way ahead of it's time....low entry and exit [vehicle packing] limited it's up side . A Cleveland..or like is still a bad man combo .
B F Evans Ford Race Parts
270-278-2376
RW TECH
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: DETROIT, MI

Post by RW TECH »

Lem Evans wrote:Regardless of Butch or whoever...the Cleveland package was way ahead of it's time....low entry and exit [vehicle packing] limited it's up side . A Cleveland..or like is still a bad man combo .
X2.

I used to race 351C engines in my 3400 lb. door car with 10" tires in the 80's & early 90's (back before small tires were the cool thing to do).

Always did 100% of my own work & easily ran 10-teens @ 133 MPH with an engine that I spent less than $4K to build.

I've had one of them dragging around with me for years, and just sold it a while back. New owner didn't want a roller cam so I put a 305 Magnum Comp hydraulic cam in it.

At 399 CID with filled stock block, ported stock iron heads & un-ported intake, and a box-stock 4781 Holley 850 the thing made 615 HP and 496 ft. lbs. with a 50-cent hydraulic flat lifter cam in it.
fordhemi
New Member
New Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:43 pm
Location:

Post by fordhemi »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
If you think you can just design whatever you want and it will all fit together, try it.

Thank you!! People think it's so easy to build a ''new'' engine and it's just not that easy.
Ron E
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2085
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: nc

Post by Ron E »

phoenix wrote:Jon, never said I could do better at engineering a new engine. I would have liked to see it look a little different rather than exact clone. When Sonny used Tom Roberts head he changed the valve cover shape. We all knew what it was underneath, but he made it his own.
Buy the way, Rick Smith (Trick Flow) came up with the "Mirrored" Hemi head design before Mopar. It was for a proposed 4.5 BS SB engine with 9 cam bearings about 10 or eleven years ago. He wanted to use it in PST.
If you want to get technical, look at a mid 70's 20R Toyota. Well ahead of Ford or Dodge. There's your mirrored hemi. It may not be the first either. There are only so many styles you can use for a round cylinder a plug and two round valves. Pretty much anything you can dream up is not terribly unique. Themes are reintroduced in hope of taking advantage of the current metallurgy,chemistry, and rules.

I don't think any mentioned designer has tried to take some sort of credit for a totally new configuration. The details that have hindered developers in past designs are designed out of them when they get the chance to design one. Yea. P/S is closing in on very similar designs. Valve orders and other lesser details are different, but from a short distance they're looking more and more alike. That's nothing but stable rules and on going development around them. After a sufficient amount of development time has passed, physics and track results aren't going to point team A to the left and team B to the right.
Darin Morgan
Show Guest
Show Guest
Posts: 1095
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:56 am
Location: Arlington Texas
Contact:

Post by Darin Morgan »

mach9 wrote:Thanks for the update Darin. We knew you were on top of things. :D
The first casting where poured this week. The design has been finalized. We will be testing the casting this week ( X-ray, inclusion. density, ect, ect) and will be able to ship Ford the first set to look at probably today or tomorrow.


Not much longer now. I promise!
Darin Morgan
-Induction Research and Development
-EFI Calibration and Tuning
Reher Morrison Racing Engines
1120 Enterprise Place
Arlington Texas 76001
Phone 817-467-7171
Cell 682-559-0321
http://www.rehermorrison.com
mach9
Pro
Pro
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Post by mach9 »

Darin,
Have both or either of the new heads been approved by NHRA yet? Or do they want to see actual pieces before giving the ok? Thanks for the update.

PS-Just saw where Ford was named "Official Car and Truck of NHRA" today. They probably won't have a lot of trouble getting approved. :wink:
Mack Johnson
'86 Mustang Footbraker
Pump gas 347
6.435 @ 104
fordhemi
New Member
New Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:43 pm
Location:

Post by fordhemi »

That is GREAT news! Thanks for the updates darin!
SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

PS-Just saw where Ford was named "Official Car and Truck of NHRA" today. They probably won't have a lot of trouble getting approved.
Given GM and Chyslers new owners, let's all hope they aren't the "Only Car and Truck of NHRA"
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
Gary Blair
Pro
Pro
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:01 pm
Location: Pylesville, Md.

Post by Gary Blair »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
PS-Just saw where Ford was named "Official Car and Truck of NHRA" today. They probably won't have a lot of trouble getting approved.
Given GM and Chyslers new owners, let's all hope they aren't the "Only Car and Truck of NHRA"
Current "Only Car and Truck of NHRA is GM" Their exclusive contract insures that until the court disolves it.

If I were Ford Marketing I would negotiate the same exclusivity.

What would you suggest?
Gary Blair
Pro
Pro
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:01 pm
Location: Pylesville, Md.

Post by Gary Blair »

Ron E wrote:
phoenix wrote:Jon, never said I could do better at engineering a new engine. I would have liked to see it look a little different rather than exact clone. When Sonny used Tom Roberts head he changed the valve cover shape. We all knew what it was underneath, but he made it his own.
Buy the way, Rick Smith (Trick Flow) came up with the "Mirrored" Hemi head design before Mopar. It was for a proposed 4.5 BS SB engine with 9 cam bearings about 10 or eleven years ago. He wanted to use it in PST.
If you want to get technical, look at a mid 70's 20R Toyota. Well ahead of Ford or Dodge. There's your mirrored hemi. It may not be the first either. There are only so many styles you can use for a round cylinder a plug and two round valves. Pretty much anything you can dream up is not terribly unique. Themes are reintroduced in hope of taking advantage of the current metallurgy,chemistry, and rules.

I don't think any mentioned designer has tried to take some sort of credit for a totally new configuration. The details that have hindered developers in past designs are designed out of them when they get the chance to design one. Yea. P/S is closing in on very similar designs. Valve orders and other lesser details are different, but from a short distance they're looking more and more alike. That's nothing but stable rules and on going development around them. After a sufficient amount of development time has passed, physics and track results aren't going to point team A to the left and team B to the right.
The Toyota 20R is not to dissimilar from the late 60's Ford German Cologne 2.0 SOHC I4. The Cologne has a reverse symetrical valve layout vs the Toyota's mirror. Neither are Hemi as neither have compound valve angles.

The first rotated/twisted Hemi was the Boss 9 regardless of symetrical or mirror layout. The first Dodge was not a Hemi. It did not have any side cant/compound valve angle. It is now a rotated Hemi (ALA Boss 9) although mirrored.

So if Ford wants to use technology it pioneered (Boss 9) and technology it had a PN on in 1999 (mirrored) it can't be a clone.
Darin Morgan
Show Guest
Show Guest
Posts: 1095
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:56 am
Location: Arlington Texas
Contact:

Post by Darin Morgan »

mach9 wrote:Darin,
Have both or either of the new heads been approved by NHRA yet? Or do they want to see actual pieces before giving the ok? Thanks for the update.

PS-Just saw where Ford was named "Official Car and Truck of NHRA" today. They probably won't have a lot of trouble getting approved. :wink:
I wont comment on what Ford or NHRA will or wont do. in my personal opinion however, I don't think the heads will have problems gaining NHRAs approval.
Darin Morgan
-Induction Research and Development
-EFI Calibration and Tuning
Reher Morrison Racing Engines
1120 Enterprise Place
Arlington Texas 76001
Phone 817-467-7171
Cell 682-559-0321
http://www.rehermorrison.com
DavidM
New Member
New Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:59 pm
Location:

Post by DavidM »

Call Darin's heads Ford and the mirror hemis Mercury i.e., Pontiac, Olds, Chevy.
Post Reply