Ring Tension Again!

[want-a-be]

Yes...it's the arc near the quench area of the piston. Just lay it back pretty good.

I'd go with the different rings. What fuel are you running? What compression are you running? What head are you running? Was your block honed with a torque plate?

If you're needing more help pm me and I can give you some contact information.

Don

Ace Rod Shop

[trmnatr]

Strange Magic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject:
Please tell me that someone did not knurl the sides of those pistons.

Those pistons are knurled, but they aren't the ones being used in this motor. By the way, knurling is fine if it's done right. You have to go back and smooth the knurled edge so your left with only the beefy part of the displaced metal. You can double the life of your piston if you get a craftsman to do it.

want-a-be
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject:
I'd round them pretty good. The flame front being able to hug the piston as it travels across the piston is very important. Sharp edges will promote turbulance in the flame front, which will trim hp from your engine. You wouldn't want turbulance in your intake runner, would you? This is as important or even more. Lay back the valve reliefs a lot, also. You shouldn't be trimming much compression, but if you do then deck the head some to get it back. IMO...wherever the flame isn't hugging the piston it isn't getting full force pushing the piston down the hole during combustion.

This is all just my opinion, but hey...I'm just a want-a-be ...lol

Don, Does it look like an oil control issue to you? What does "lay back the valve reliefs" mean? Do you mean the wall of the arc, where the relief meets the quench pad? As far as compression goes, I've got more than I want anyway. When I hand massage pistons, I always worry about getting all 8 the same. That's why I just barely smooth out the sharp edges. We used to try to leave the exhaust side shaper than the intake side of the dome. Is that old school and no longer true? HELP ME Don. I've got some good pics of Grumps small block stuff from the old days. I'll have to dig that book out.

Ron, first let me say what are your rail gaps when in the bore on the oil ring? Also, A napier ring will allow you to get away with a lighter oil ring usually. Where in Maryland are you? Where do you race? Capitol? MIR? Cecil? Ever run at 75 80?? Most MP racers have

Remember the old 277 MP engine turning 10,000rpm?? I remember a guy but cant remember his name, that turned his MP 277 engine 11,000rpm past the lights:lol:

Ron, i have also wondered, alot of small inch motors have a hard time running what the small inch 23° engines did back then. I wonder if people ever wonder if its because we all ran 660 center squirters on a TM1 or a Wieand Pro Ram Tunnel ram along with no smaller than 1 7/8" headers on 331's? One 331 in our family had 2" headers back then and was very fast

I cant remember what unc's 292 had for headers but it ran 11.20's @ 124mph - If you raced at any of those tracks i mentioned all i have to say is pea green '55 leaving the line @ 8,500rpm

Now MP is a bunch of sheet metal intakes and all - They need another class out like MP or Super Stock {with out Super Stock crap} where its any rules as long as its reasonable {kind of like MP} - Make all cars run on the same fuel, No nitrous and anything block wise, must be 23°, maybe say must be iron heads, pretty much any suspension, trans, rods, pistons etc - Almost like the old Pro Stock class, MP or something along the lines like that - This would be a good class for any old MP racers or people that like to race but dont have the budget for $1,500 Super Stock pistons that are so thin they break looking at them

Make it maybe a 331cid limit then base it on power to weight. It would be great i think. If you get the chance drop me a PM and maybe we will see you at the track one day racing when we are

Dont sweat all pistons not being the same when you massage them, all intake runners are not exactly the same unless they are cnc ported/machined and if they are send the pistons to Ronnie @ Rebco Machine if you want them perfect

I suggest using Total Seal for some oil rings, They have been pretty good to me. I would look into the napier second ring if i were you

Suggestion - Plate hone the engine block at a good machine shop around here such as Walt at Charlie's machine shop. I would send the pistons to Dart to have the skirt coatings applied if not already applied

Here is what i have seen with the skirt coatings, Without them when you pull the engine down the hone pattern {finish} is worn down, With coated skirts you can pull the engine down and the hone pattern looks like new - What i think is the skirt wears the hone pattern and that is where people see HP in skirt coatings, not beacuse the coating does this or that to the piston but the coating protects they cylinder wall finish and the rings rotate more consistently through the life of the engine - I dont think the power is from less friction, i think the power is the hone pattern cross hatch doesnt wear down like an uncoated piston and at freshen up time the engine really does have more hp with the coated skirts - See what im saying? I woke up in middle of the night and had to reply to you - My wording may be a little off because im still asleep

As to thermal barrier coatings, i have used them but i cant say good or bad. I have used skirt coatings longer than thermal barrier coatings.

Are you running a second ring end gap larger than the top ring gap? I run a .020/.026-.030 gap on 302-327-350 race engines and they work great - The top ring we use a .005" ring end gap factor

NOTE: Also, if your skirts show some wear they can build the skirts up like .0015" per side where a coating is usually around .0005"-.0007" per side {per skirt}. If you do send the to dart wire wheel the tops and just clean oil with soap and water and include a note with them they are used, of course, and you have not cleaned them with anything but soap and water - I think you will be happy with the ring packs i suggested and the skirt coatings

Total Seal also has a nice ring line out called Gold Finish rings which are a good rings coated with a PVD coating, i highly suggest these for a drag engine. If they dont have in your ring sizes go with the AP line with the PVD coating on them - In my opinion the AP and Gold Finish are the same performance just the Gold Finish has a little less operating friction but need to be changed sooner than AP series - AP series would be great for a circle track car as the coating is a hair thicker

EDIT: I can also tell you that Cadiallac has problems with them using oil, bad oil rings and wiper and the top ring usually doesnt seal too well - Two good friends of mine work at the dealer, Guess what GM's solution was??? New pistons with coated skirts and it fixes the problem

What happens is the darn skirt wears the hone pattern then the rings end up not sealing and they then have issues - GM is replace some under warranty, You think GM is gonna pay for a coating on them if its not really doing the job?? NO

[Ron Gusack]

want-a-be
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 101


PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes...it's the arc near the quench area of the piston. Just lay it back pretty good.

I'd go with the different rings. What fuel are you running? What compression are you running? What head are you running? Was your block honed with a torque plate?

If you're needing more help pm me and I can give you some contact information.

Don

Ace Rod Shop

Thanks for the advice Don. I run Cam2 purple, which is rated at 110 octane. The static compression is about 14:1. I say about because I have a hard time measuring the head gasket because the bore size isn't round, because of the valve reliefs in the block, which I don't have. I probably should grind reliefs on the intake side because of the small bore, but I haven't. The block was honed with plates and when I file the rings I measure them about 2 inches in the hole. The heads are old school "C" port Chevy 1077's. Do you remember them? Not many guys do, but Larry Meaux told me these heads are okay. I gave him flow numbers and he said I was just a tad off in the mid lift from what he gets out of them. I had some old Valley round port heads that were 2 tenths faster, but I sold them to get these done. Welcome to drag racing. My cam is an old technology Cam Dynamics roller. 680/680 270/280 @ .050. You'd like the angle of the wall from the quench area to the bottom of the relief to be more like 70 degrees, instead of the 85 I have. I can see where Grump's is nowhere near as steep as mine and the edge of his dome is rounded more. Do I use a die grinder to lay that wall back? I have a small Jet mill, but i don't have a piston vice. What rings do you like? I've got Mahle Moly 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 and I got the standard oil because of the possible control problem. Keep in mind that this is only a bracket car. My days of chasing a hundredth are long gone. I do try to make as much power as I can, but not at the cost of reliability. I'm only going through the lights at 7,200. I appreciate you taking some time to school me a little.

[Ron Gusack]

Hi trmnatr,

I only run at Capitol these days because it's an easy tow and my truck is a bit tired. I ran big blocks back in the MP days, but I remember quite a few screaming small blocks that were local. Back then we ran at 75-80, Capitol, Mason Dixon and Aquasco. We'd go to North Carolina and Virginia too.

[want-a-be]

Forgot to ask what intake you're running.

Don

[trmnatr]

Hi trmnatr,

I only run at Capitol these days because it's an easy tow and my truck is a bit tired. I ran big blocks back in the MP days, but I remember quite a few screaming small blocks that were local. Back then we ran at 75-80, Capitol, Mason Dixon and Aquasco. We'd go to North Carolina and Virginia too.

Well, Are your piston skirts coated? If not i sugeest having them coated at Dart with a good piston ring pack such as Total Seal Gold Finish or AP ring kit, it will be a coated top ring, napier second ring and a low tension oil ring

[Ron Gusack]

Forgot to ask what intake you're running.

Last year I ran a Victor Jr with an 825 Demon. The car runs best with a 1050 dominator on an old C454 dual plane. I know.......Everybody yells at me when they see that old manifold. It's .02 and almost 3 mph better than the single plane. Trans is a 400 with a 5500 stall. 488 rear gear, 14x32 tire.
[img][img]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg81 ... k/nova.jpg[/img][/img]

[want-a-be]

You have a pic of the intake?

Don

[trmnatr]

Forgot to ask what intake you're running.

Last year I ran a Victor Jr with an 825 Demon. The car runs best with a 1050 dominator on an old C454 dual plane. I know.......Everybody yells at me when they see that old manifold. It's .02 and almost 3 mph better than the single plane. Trans is a 400 with a 5500 stall. 488 rear gear, 14x32 tire.
[img][img]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg81 ... k/nova.jpg[/img][/img]

I have seen that car up capitol

[trmnatr]

Ron, here is a link to a track photo of my car - you may know the car, i have seen yours

http://www.dnsphotography.com/gallery2/ ... mId=214273

[Masher Manufacturing]

The spark plug is wet but shows no carbon from oil deposits. Do you let off the throttle at the end with the motor in gear? If so I'd tend to think the oil is coming from a high vac situation.

[Strange Magic]

I'd say 550-575 HP, the car weighs 2800 and goes 10.0's at 132. It's a 427 standard bore.

I highly doubt you have anything that would be around 13.0 compression let alone 14 to 1 compression. Your car weight, hp and et/mph results show otherwise.

Your piston doesn't look that off track other than maybe the incorrect timing. You should be up around 39 to 41 degrees. You will have to play with it to determin which would better suit the engines needs. The amount of oil in the pan will have an impact on ring seal as well.

[Ron Gusack]

want-a-be
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:55 am Post subject:
You have a pic of the intake?

Which intake do you want a picture of. I can shoot one tonight or tomorrow.

Masher Manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject:
The spark plug is wet but shows no carbon from oil deposits. Do you let off the throttle at the end with the motor in gear? If so I'd tend to think the oil is coming from a high vac situation.

I go straight to neutral at the stripe. The timing mark on the plugs is only off a little to me and it starts fairly easy with a spin and flip routine, so I leave it.

Strange Magic
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I'd say 550-575 HP, the car weighs 2800 and goes 10.0's at 132. It's a 427 standard bore.


I highly doubt you have anything that would be around 13.0 compression let alone 14 to 1 compression. Your car weight, hp and et/mph results show otherwise.

Your piston doesn't look that off track other than maybe the incorrect timing. You should be up around 39 to 41 degrees. You will have to play with it to determin which would better suit the engines needs. The amount of oil in the pan will have an impact on ring seal as well.
Masher Manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:15 pm

Bore 4.259
Stroke 3.76
Deck .005
Chamber 105cc
Dome 49.456
Gasket .039 compressed
Gasket Diameter 4.360 (Thats approximate because it's not round)
Let me know what you come up with.
Maybe I'll throw more timing at it and see what the plugs look like. I know the timing is a little low. There's 7 quarts of oil total. I run an Oberg with about 3 feet of braided line to and from the filter, 6 feet total.

THANKS to all for your suggestions, keep em coming if you got em.

[Strange Magic]

Dome 49.456

Based upon numerous BBC builds, I would have to wager that the dome when cc'd is not 49 cc's, although I could be wrong. I have seen many of times piston manufactures advertise domes and they were not what they advertise and I have also seen 49 to 52 cc domes that need a lot of material removal to fit without crashing in a 105 cc chamber. If it truely is 14.1 compression, than you are truely smoking this engine with cam 2 purple. It will detonate severely on it. I personally wouldn't recommend cam 2 purple in anything above 11.5-11.7. You need to be on sunoco Blue supreme.

At 427 cubic inches, and at the weight as described with 14.1 compression, this ride should be considerably faster in mph and considerably quicker in et.

There's 7 quarts of oil total. I run an Oberg with about 3 feet of braided line to and from the filter, 6 feet total.

Drop out 1 quart of oil, set the timing at 41 and put some sunoco blue in it. You will need timing to get that flame over the dome.

[trmnatr]

want-a-be
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:55 am Post subject:
You have a pic of the intake?

Which intake do you want a picture of. I can shoot one tonight or tomorrow.

Masher Manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject:
The spark plug is wet but shows no carbon from oil deposits. Do you let off the throttle at the end with the motor in gear? If so I'd tend to think the oil is coming from a high vac situation.

I go straight to neutral at the stripe. The timing mark on the plugs is only off a little to me and it starts fairly easy with a spin and flip routine, so I leave it.

Strange Magic
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I'd say 550-575 HP, the car weighs 2800 and goes 10.0's at 132. It's a 427 standard bore.


I highly doubt you have anything that would be around 13.0 compression let alone 14 to 1 compression. Your car weight, hp and et/mph results show otherwise.

Your piston doesn't look that off track other than maybe the incorrect timing. You should be up around 39 to 41 degrees. You will have to play with it to determin which would better suit the engines needs. The amount of oil in the pan will have an impact on ring seal as well.
Masher Manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:15 pm

Bore 4.259
Stroke 3.76
Deck .005
Chamber 105cc
Dome 49.456
Gasket .039 compressed
Gasket Diameter 4.360 (Thats approximate because it's not round)
Let me know what you come up with.
Maybe I'll throw more timing at it and see what the plugs look like. I know the timing is a little low. There's 7 quarts of oil total. I run an Oberg with about 3 feet of braided line to and from the filter, 6 feet total.

THANKS to all for your suggestions, keep em coming if you got em.

Can i ask a dumb question, How do you go to Nuetral? Stick car? Std Automatic? With our trnasbrake if doesnt compression the motor, all you do is lift. There is no band in the transmisison to give it engine breaking - What do you have for a transmission?