Ring Tension Again!

Alan Roehrich · Post by **Alan Roehrich** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:29 pm

Ron Gusack wrote:
On the cam, there are a couple of guys here you can talk to, Mike or Harold for example, or you can talk to Tim Cole or Chris Padgitt at Comp.
What do you think of 725/725 279/287 @.050. Waaaaaay big, right? That's the cam that I got after talking to one of the guys you mentioned.

I'll contact Bub. I used to race with him back in the early 70's. He had a CMP Nova and I had a BMP Chevelle. We used the same machine shop back then and it's the one I still use today.

Sometimes the guys at the cam companies get carried away. I always tell them I'm looking for something conservative and easy on parts, unless I'm looking for that last HP and that last hundredth of a second. On bracket stuff, or super class stuff, I go conservative. I guess I shouldn't be surprised they came up 10 degrees bigger than I'd want, I usually have to tell them not to get carried away. I should have remembered to tell you that. My fault.

Here's what I'd look at running, if you want to order something out of the catalog, and get it quickly. Part number 11-715-9, grind 296CR-8, 262/270/108, 714" lift on both valves. If you want a custom I've been looking at a 266/272/108 .723/.731 that I think would work well. I think either of those cams will give you a peak that fits the RPM you're running.

Sure, you can run a really big cam. But you won't gain a whole lot, you'll need more RPM, and it'll be harder to drive, harder to tune, and less consistent. Cam companies will almost always tell you to go big, because they know people tend to buy the bigger cam that is suggested. So they want to be at least as big as the other guy you talked to.

On the subject of "smooth as glass" cylinder walls. There's a big difference between really smooth and slick but "frosty" cylinder walls, and those shiny slick cylinder walls. It ain't the shiny ones you want. Shiny and smooth as glass almost always ends up being the same as burnished or glazed.

Ron Gusack · Post by **Ron Gusack** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:07 pm

Here's what I'd look at running, if you want to order something out of the catalog, and get it quickly. Part number 11-715-9, grind 296CR-8, 262/270/108, 714" lift on both valves. If you want a custom I've been looking at a 266/272/108 .723/.731 that I think would work well. I think either of those cams will give you a peak that fits the RPM you're running.

Alan, are those Comp Cams part #'s? Is the off the shelf just as good for my purposes? More than anything else, I want it to be consistent. The track I run at has a very slippery starting line, and it adds to inconsistent ET's. Are you taking my heads into account with regards to your cam selection? I thought they were too big, but the intakes measure under 300. That's me measuring them though, so there's reasonable doubt about the validity. I measured all 8 and the range was 292-298.

Tuner recommended that I wet hone with 600, then 1000 to get a polished look. He went through the entire process and it sounded like what the killers used to do back in the 70's. Darin chimed in and gave his approval and said Tuner was dead on with the process.

Would you approve of replacing the 60 Oberg with one of their 28 screens? If not, do you run the stock filter adapter and block the by-pass? That's what I used to do before I got the Oberg. I ran the Fram HP's.

Alan Roehrich · Post by **Alan Roehrich** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:34 pm

Ron, provided you can keep from burnishing the cylinders, the 600 grit is fine. But it takes experience, care, and diligence. Same with 1000. once you do that, assembly becomes VERY critical, and you CANNOT use anything but a thin, light oil on the rings and pistons, and you cannot use a lot of it. If you use anything thicker, or use a lot of it, your rings will likely never seal.

Yes, the Comp numbers I gave (11-715-9) you are a shelf cam, and they'll be fine for what you want. Going smaller and slightly conservative makes the car easier for you to tune and drive. I would put that cam in at 106 to start with it, and maybe try 108 or 110 to see what the engine and the car like.

On your heads, they are as big or bigger than both sets I have that I use on my 427. They are not too big unless you over cam. Which is why you don't need a huge cam, you need to stay small and conservative. With my small flat tappet, my peak power is at 6800. That's why I'm saying you do not need a huge roller to make power where you are wanting to run your engine.

No, I do not think that 28 microns is really fine enough, I'd want to see filtration under 20 microns. The Fram filters are bad about the filter media failing. You can block the bypass, IF you provide plenty of filter area and you keep it changed. For example, assembly lube will plug the filter quickly when you first start it. Also, you MUST warm up at idle, and get the oil up to about 180 or so before you rev the engine above 1500, or you risk crushing or rupturing the filter media. IF you have the room and the ground clearance, the AC PF 932 filter offers a lot more filter area, BUT you must verify that you get the ones that have the perforated steel tube inside the filter media.

Oh, by the way, when I buy my rings from Total Seal, they put the Speed Pro SS50U oil ring in the package for me, no problem.

dacaman12 · Post by **dacaman12** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:59 pm

Ron Gusack wrote:What do you think of 725/725 279/287 @.050. Waaaaaay big, right? That's the cam that I got after talking to one of the guys you mentioned.

Your signature could probably answer that question.

But seriously, the guy that spec'd that cam out for you isn't exactly known for "guessing" or "getting carried away". That's one of Harold's "24hrs @ Daytona" cams. It is a refined version of our Craftsman Truck cam. It makes 95% of the Solid rollers in Comp's master list look like junk, especially on the bottom-end. We've ran it in 400s and 427s with outstanding results. Besides, Nobody knows Harold's cams better than Harold.

There is a reason he went with such a large cam. That family has broken zero engine parts and 3 driveshafts so far. Combine this with your 14:1 CR and less than ideal track conditions, it starts to make a little more sense. HP should peak around 7200-7300 with that cam in a 427BBC.

The guy that straightened that cam is a whole nuther story!!!(a lesson learned, indeed)

THe best of luck with your project, Mr. Gusack

Ron Gusack · Post by **Ron Gusack** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 pm

Is that you Mike? How are you? Your exec never did call me! Now I have 2 completely different opinions from different people that I have a lot of respect for. I wasn't going to mention the UD man by name, I just thought it was ironic that Alan was sending me to someone that already recommended the opposite of what Alan recommended. I think I'd give Alan the edge here, based on actual racing/building experience. The other factor is that I might not have 14:1, based on the consensus here. I haven't come up with a good way to check the validity of my burette. I might go to my old friend Bub to get his opinion, plus I haven't seen him in over 35 years.
The hard part is "knowing who knows"

trmnatr · Post by **trmnatr** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:24 am

Strange Magic wrote:
Butch
Was the AED a 2bbl

Was that two barrell attached to a Biondo or Dedenbear throttle stop?

Nope, 850AED straight from AED - Best passes 10.88-10.90

Then installed my 750BG modified by us, Grant it we had weighted floats, and more in the carb - It went a 10.65 right out the box then went 10.63 and was 10.63-10.65 for two weeks so he called AED - They said you cant compare that BG750 to their 850 - Grab an 850

Luck for me i had one in the shop, i set it up with the 750 float bowls and set the carb up and it went a 10.615 just bolted on the engine

Switched the 4.56 gears out to 4.88 and now its best is 10.436 with the 850

Eric68 · Post by **Eric68** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:29 pm

Interesting results on the BG 750 vs. the AED 850. I have had exactly the opposite results with a Speed Demon 750 and an AED 850. The main difference being that my AED 850 is an E85 carb so the fuel changed. Even then the AED was only .04 faster. I have had great luck with both of these carbs.

That being said, the Speed Demon 750, is the fastest gasoline carb I've had on my engine. Even faster than an 800 and 850 Mighty Demon. Faster than an 850 Holley. Faster than an O-3310 / Proform main body Holley.

I don't just bolt and go either, I use my wide band and tweak my carbs to perfection.

Ron Gusack · Post by **Ron Gusack** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:08 pm

Thank you to all, for your suggestions and critiques. As for the accuracy of my compression measuring, I've learned recently that 1cc of water will weigh 1 gram. I can now measure the accuracy of my burette. I still plan to call you Don, I've just been very busy lately.

Ron

Ron Gusack · Post by **Ron Gusack** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:50 pm

For anybody that's interested, I checked my burette and it is off. A cc in my burette is actually 1.023 cc's. That means my 183 cc's were really 187, and my 49.45 cc dome is really 46.05. All of this means I really have 13.6:1 static C/R. I'm going to go through the entire process one more time.

Larry Heath · Post by **Larry Heath** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:00 pm

Ron Gusack wrote:Thank you to all, for your suggestions and critiques. As for the accuracy of my compression measuring, I've learned recently that 1cc of water will weigh 1 gram. I can now measure the accuracy of my burette. I still plan to call you Don, I've just been very busy lately.

Ron

Most volumetric measuring devices are standardized at 68 degrees F (20C) so if your water was some other temp you may be a little bit off and it is only true for distilled water as well. A cc of distilled water weighs 1 gram only at 3.98 degrees C

http://physchem.kfunigraz.ac.at/sm/Serv ... 2Odens.htm

n2omike · Post by **n2omike** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:10 pm

Larry Heath wrote:
Ron Gusack wrote:Thank you to all, for your suggestions and critiques. As for the accuracy of my compression measuring, I've learned recently that 1cc of water will weigh 1 gram. I can now measure the accuracy of my burette. I still plan to call you Don, I've just been very busy lately.

Ron
Most volumetric measuring devices are standardized at 68 degrees F (20C) so if your water was some other temp you may be a little bit off and it is only true for distilled water as well. A cc of distilled water weighs 1 gram only at 3.98 degrees C

http://physchem.kfunigraz.ac.at/sm/Serv ... 2Odens.htm

For all intents and purposes, the variance with water density at different temps is statistically insignificant with the actual temperature swings and measurement precision are taken into account. His error in reading the buret, and even the accuracy of the buret itself, will probably be more significant than the density of the water.

1.0 ml of water has a mass of 1.0g. I L of water (1000ml) has a mass of 1kg (1000g). Oh, a ml is defined as a cubic centimeter. (cc)

The more a person messes with this stuff, the more they appreciate the metric system. Everything ties together FAR better than the imperial system. For those of you who dislike celcius... Water freezes at 0 celcius and boils at 100. Stupid, huh? Freezing at 32F and boiling at 212F makes a lot more sense. LOL

One more thing... There are:

10 millimeters in a centimeter
10 centimeters in a decimeter
10 decimeters in a meter
10 meters in a decameter
10 decameters in a hectometer
10 hectometers in a kilometer

Converting between metric measurements is as simple as multiplying or dividing by 10... which can be done by moving the decimal to the left or right.

As a bonus, the metric system uses the SAME prefixes for everything! Simply replace 'meter' with 'Liter' and you've got the units for volume. Replace it with 'gram' and you've got the units for mass. (weight)

Hmmm... imperial system...

3 tsp = 1 tbs
2tbs = 1oz
8oz = 1 cup
2 cups = 1pt
2pt = 1qt
4qt = 1gal

convert 4lbs of water to cups. Not easy.

Convert 2kg of water to centiliters...
2kg = 2L = 200cl

Well, that was 'off track'. Point is, ALL scientists use the metric system for it's simplicity, and how everything ties together. The USA tried to switcth (like the rest of the world) in the 70's, but gave up prematurely.

Good Luck!

Ron Gusack · Post by **Ron Gusack** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:55 pm

Larry Heath
Member
Member

Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 57
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Ron Gusack wrote:
Thank you to all, for your suggestions and critiques. As for the accuracy of my compression measuring, I've learned recently that 1cc of water will weigh 1 gram. I can now measure the accuracy of my burette. I still plan to call you Don, I've just been very busy lately.

Ron

Most volumetric measuring devices are standardized at 68 degrees F (20C) so if your water was some other temp you may be a little bit off and it is only true for distilled water as well. A cc of distilled water weighs 1 gram only at 3.98 degrees C

Larry, I noticed the temperature variation, but it only came to be about .003 of a cc difference. I'm off more than that just by eye ball angles.

trmnatr · Post by **trmnatr** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:05 pm

Eric68 wrote:Interesting results on the BG 750 vs. the AED 850. I have had exactly the opposite results with a Speed Demon 750 and an AED 850. The main difference being that my AED 850 is an E85 carb so the fuel changed. Even then the AED was only .04 faster. I have had great luck with both of these carbs.

That being said, the Speed Demon 750, is the fastest gasoline carb I've had on my engine. Even faster than an 800 and 850 Mighty Demon. Faster than an 850 Holley. Faster than an O-3310 / Proform main body Holley.

I don't just bolt and go either, I use my wide band and tweak my carbs to perfection.

The problem with the Race Demon and Mighty Demon is the idle circuits need to be fatter than what they are to perform like a Speed and thats why your speed was quicker, The race carbs come with .070" idle air bleeds, The speeds are .059 pri/.063 sec idle bleeds {thats some difference there}, i have always had great luck and ET's with straight .059" idle bleeds - HS depends on engine combo, transbrake, footbrake, manifold, cam etc

9 out of 10 times the Race series want more jet than the speed would, On the 406 we ran 84/84 in the speed demon modified highly but still retaines the choke tower, The race series {mighty and race} we usually run 85 or 86's but again depending on engine combo

We do alot of indexing, weighted floats, different jet extension from the normal practice plus some other things. We modify them even further, The AED was not right. I can say this, AED said they would take it back and fix it but its no biggie, it will remain the way it is

We dont use a wideband, we look at the plugs and exhaust ports and that works better than any way we have found

We have built and raced small blocks for years, there are many combo's we can hit the nail directly on the head just due to prior knowledge