Hi Guys, I would like to know if anybody is using very thin oils in drag racing Engines ?
stuff like 00-5wt 0-10wt etc.
How are bearings looking ?
camshaft wear ?
will a solid flat tappet cam live with these oils ?
Special clearances used ?
Oil pressure reqd. ?
What is the lowest weight synthetic that Mobil 1 make ?
thanks......
very thin oils in racing
Moderator: Team
They have discontinued the Mobil-1R oil. Their latest 0-30 shelf oil is very similar to the Mobil-1R.... in terms of an additive package. 0-30 is not a thin oil, as it is still a 30 weight oil. It's viscosity index is on the thin side for a 30 weight oil, but it's not dramatically thinner than any other 30 weight oil.
I have a lot of experience with the 10 weight oils, but have not messed around with the 0000 weight as the Pro Stock guys are doing.
I would NOT recommend the 10 or less weight oils for an engine that needs to stay together for at least a full racing season. This includes Royal Purple Racing 9, or 11 lite, or any of the other 5 weight racing oils. 20 weight minimum for a full season engine.
If this is an engine that sees qualifying, you could use the super light stuff for qualifying and then run the thicker oil for racing.
The 0000 weight oils is strictly for limited use and is VERY expensive. You're talking a 2-300 dollar oil change and the engine needs to be designed for it.
Just my .02 worth.
I have a lot of experience with the 10 weight oils, but have not messed around with the 0000 weight as the Pro Stock guys are doing.
I would NOT recommend the 10 or less weight oils for an engine that needs to stay together for at least a full racing season. This includes Royal Purple Racing 9, or 11 lite, or any of the other 5 weight racing oils. 20 weight minimum for a full season engine.
If this is an engine that sees qualifying, you could use the super light stuff for qualifying and then run the thicker oil for racing.
The 0000 weight oils is strictly for limited use and is VERY expensive. You're talking a 2-300 dollar oil change and the engine needs to be designed for it.
Just my .02 worth.
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engineczar
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I RAN 0-30 AND 0-20 MOBIL 1 SYNTH. FOR ABOUT 80 PASSES WITH NO TEARDOWN. BEARINGS LOOKED GREAT, .0023" CLEARANCE ON RODS AND MAINS. NO WARMUP BEFORE BURNOUT EITHER!! 0-20 MOBIL 1 IS A GREAT OIL AND NOT TOO HARD ON THE WALLET EITHER. SEEMS TO HOLD TOGETHER LONGER THAN RP RACING 11 AND MAKE THE SAME POWER.
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Torquemonster
What Chris said...
Royal Purple was the big rage for a while... but tests have shown that Redline holds its properties longer and actually will climb the metal (static) - which few oils can, tho that is more important in gears.
Redline has similar film strength to Royal Purple so should be just as safe to run as thin as Royal Purple racing grades.
We switched from Quaker State to Redline on a 6 second Pro Mod - but not the real thin stuff. Car went from breaking something or wearing out something EVERY race day - forever changing pushrods and valvesprings etc - and often worse - on Quaker State....
to NO as in ZERO parts replaced for an ENTIRE SEASON on Redline. Not even a valve spring...
actually I lie - at the end of the season one of the boys forgot to prelube one pushrod and it blued, so we replaced it for the last race. Engine tear down showed no wear. After a season of over 200mph passes, national records for both ET and mph and an eventual national championship - the team was quite pleased - and so was Redline - the new sponsor that replaced Quaker State.
If their thin oils are anything like their recommended Alcohol burning oil - they'll be worth a try. They have superior load bearing capacity over most other racing oils. Mobil One is great provided you run tighter clearances - I'd not run it near a Pro Mod engine without building it especially for it. Mobil One cannot take the pounding of very high loads with normal race clearances - at least in the past it could not.
Royal Purple was the big rage for a while... but tests have shown that Redline holds its properties longer and actually will climb the metal (static) - which few oils can, tho that is more important in gears.
Redline has similar film strength to Royal Purple so should be just as safe to run as thin as Royal Purple racing grades.
We switched from Quaker State to Redline on a 6 second Pro Mod - but not the real thin stuff. Car went from breaking something or wearing out something EVERY race day - forever changing pushrods and valvesprings etc - and often worse - on Quaker State....
to NO as in ZERO parts replaced for an ENTIRE SEASON on Redline. Not even a valve spring...
actually I lie - at the end of the season one of the boys forgot to prelube one pushrod and it blued, so we replaced it for the last race. Engine tear down showed no wear. After a season of over 200mph passes, national records for both ET and mph and an eventual national championship - the team was quite pleased - and so was Redline - the new sponsor that replaced Quaker State.
If their thin oils are anything like their recommended Alcohol burning oil - they'll be worth a try. They have superior load bearing capacity over most other racing oils. Mobil One is great provided you run tighter clearances - I'd not run it near a Pro Mod engine without building it especially for it. Mobil One cannot take the pounding of very high loads with normal race clearances - at least in the past it could not.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't hear a lot of folks talk about Redline oils. Maybe it's because it seems a lot of the trendy speedshops push the stuff, I don't know.
I do know however that Redline has an awesome additive package, and Iv'e seen quite a few Used Oil Analysis' with it, and it is truely one of the TOP racing oils out there... it's the real deal. I'm not sure why more people don't use it(that I've seen anyhow)
There is another racing oil out there that is pretty expensive called Torco racing oil. Has an outrageous additive package in it, and it's about 10 bucks a quart. This is not the Torco fuel company. Never tried it though.
Lately I've been messing around with Synergyn oil. A bit expensive but so far I like it.... a lot.
When I look at an oil to use in a racing engine I study it's additive package first. Some good synthetic oils have no business in a racing engine.
I do know however that Redline has an awesome additive package, and Iv'e seen quite a few Used Oil Analysis' with it, and it is truely one of the TOP racing oils out there... it's the real deal. I'm not sure why more people don't use it(that I've seen anyhow)
There is another racing oil out there that is pretty expensive called Torco racing oil. Has an outrageous additive package in it, and it's about 10 bucks a quart. This is not the Torco fuel company. Never tried it though.
Lately I've been messing around with Synergyn oil. A bit expensive but so far I like it.... a lot.
When I look at an oil to use in a racing engine I study it's additive package first. Some good synthetic oils have no business in a racing engine.
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SStrokerAce
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DavidHarsay
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In my opinion, the base is what makes redline superior to type I and II oils... the more additive, the less lubricating. This is also the reason they themselves recommend against 10W40 compared to 10W30 for lubrication qualities... more additives make for less lubrication. The high heat resistance is due to the base... the additives offer additional viscosity. Additionally, I think they purchase their additives from one of the other companies such as shell or valvoline, can't remember, and it's fairly common or average in my opinion once again. That's probably being just picky with symantics, or accurate language, and no offense meant, just wanted to point it out. I use redline fluids whenever protecting the oil formula from excess heat is of particular value.ChrisU wrote: I do know however that Redline has an awesome additive package, and Iv'e seen quite a few Used Oil Analysis' with it, and it is truely one of the TOP racing oils out there... it's the real deal. I'm not sure why more people don't use it(that I've seen anyhow)
Redline oil base is a Type III oil. Royal Purple and Mobil One are Type II oils. Castrol Syntec and Valvoline Synthetic are actually hydrocracked dino oils... classified as synthetic (only here in the US, their european versions are actual real deal Type II oils). This can be researched by looking at the MSDS, as the oill companies tend to be secretive about their formulations.
Dave
No offense taken, and I too don't want to get into a pissing match, but Mobil 1, and Royal purple are 'Group IV' Base, as is Red Line. A synthetic oil is not a 'true' synthetic oil until it is at least a Group IV and or V oil. The cheap synthetics out there(just highly refined dino) are Group III, such as your Rotella T synthetics, or Valvoline diesel synthetics. A group II oil is plain cheap dino oil.
All oils have an additive package. Some additives control foaming, some control corrosion, there are detergents, FRICTION modifiers, and anti wear additives just to name a few. They are REQUIRED in an oil. Some oils have more of some additives than others. The additive package needs to be tuned toward the intent of the oil. I do agree with you however that the base forumula, which does not show in a typical oil analysis is also key, and is proprietary to each company.
In a racing oil I look for anti wear additives such as Zinc and some others. I also prefer a particular amount of Moly to be in a racing oil.... or any oil for that matter.
Recently Mobil 1 just revamped their synthetic oils and it now has Moly in it. Not much, but some. It didn't have much if ANY in it in their TriSyn formula.(going off memory)
Redline, RP, also have Moly in their oils. Redline has a good amount of Zinc in their oils and a 'moderate' amount of Moly.
In a racing oil I like to see these additives.
Zinc
Moly
Boron
Phosphorus.
And I like them to have a hefty amount in ppm.
A TRUE RACING OIL will not pass for API approval as it's additive package will be beyond acceptable limits.
We could write a book on what each additive does, and how much this and that but there just isn't enough time in the day. But I've done a lot of homework on oil so I'm informed on what and why my racing engines need, and have a good understanding in it.... I'm not an oil engineer by any means but I know enough to sound edumacated in a discussion
Honestly everyone here should be doing an oil analysis on their oil when it's new, and then when they drain it so they can see what is wearing in the engine by the contamination in the analysis.... whether it be lead, copper, iron, etc..... Unless you're some Pro Stock guy who's ripping the thing apart every race.
All oils have an additive package. Some additives control foaming, some control corrosion, there are detergents, FRICTION modifiers, and anti wear additives just to name a few. They are REQUIRED in an oil. Some oils have more of some additives than others. The additive package needs to be tuned toward the intent of the oil. I do agree with you however that the base forumula, which does not show in a typical oil analysis is also key, and is proprietary to each company.
In a racing oil I look for anti wear additives such as Zinc and some others. I also prefer a particular amount of Moly to be in a racing oil.... or any oil for that matter.
Recently Mobil 1 just revamped their synthetic oils and it now has Moly in it. Not much, but some. It didn't have much if ANY in it in their TriSyn formula.(going off memory)
Redline, RP, also have Moly in their oils. Redline has a good amount of Zinc in their oils and a 'moderate' amount of Moly.
In a racing oil I like to see these additives.
Zinc
Moly
Boron
Phosphorus.
And I like them to have a hefty amount in ppm.
A TRUE RACING OIL will not pass for API approval as it's additive package will be beyond acceptable limits.
We could write a book on what each additive does, and how much this and that but there just isn't enough time in the day. But I've done a lot of homework on oil so I'm informed on what and why my racing engines need, and have a good understanding in it.... I'm not an oil engineer by any means but I know enough to sound edumacated in a discussion
Honestly everyone here should be doing an oil analysis on their oil when it's new, and then when they drain it so they can see what is wearing in the engine by the contamination in the analysis.... whether it be lead, copper, iron, etc..... Unless you're some Pro Stock guy who's ripping the thing apart every race.
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DavidHarsay
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Oops, you're right about the Group IV vs. Type III stuff, been a while since I was dealing with this, and the Jet Engine oils were classified as Type II, etc. I apolgize for the error.
By the way, Redline is a pure PAO based oil whereas Royal Purple is not (except their race oil, which actually has a poor addative package IMO). I don't have any evidence right at this time, but I think we can look it up if necessary.
I agree wholehartedly about the value of oil analyses. Usually needs baseline data with the samme type oil to be really worthwhile, and sort of complicated to use when evaluating different oil formulations.
By the way, Redline is a pure PAO based oil whereas Royal Purple is not (except their race oil, which actually has a poor addative package IMO). I don't have any evidence right at this time, but I think we can look it up if necessary.
I agree wholehartedly about the value of oil analyses. Usually needs baseline data with the samme type oil to be really worthwhile, and sort of complicated to use when evaluating different oil formulations.