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292 flow #s

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Postby maxracesoftware » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:30 am

Ricky Mcconathy wrote:It's threads like this that make me really respect ya'll "old timers" :notworthy:
I get to see Jimmy Bell fairly often and it's a real treat to hear some of the stories from the guys that have been in this industry for so long.
B/ED sure has come a long way.
Larry, as always, thanks for the great info.
ricky mcconathy


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one of the best HeadPorters of all time ! :notworthy:

it would be great if Jimmy joined this Forum
and shared some his knowledge and stories !
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292 Flow #s

Postby Adger Smith » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:52 am

Do any of you other "Old Timers" remember CHA.
I have am old set of their 292's that we used on our Modified Vette back in the 70's. I've played with them a little & modernized the valve job. Also fixed a couple of chambers that were hurt. They have #'s similar to those Larry posted. By the way... Watch out "Old timers" is a relative term... :~)
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Postby clevo » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:54 am

:?: :?


Where is jimmy Bell ??
Is he sill doing cylinder heads ? :?:
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Postby Ed-vancedEngines » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:47 am

I am pretty sure that Jimmy Bell is now doing all of the cylinder heads for the Nickens Racing Engines effort used in Erica Enders and in Roger Brogdon's new NHRA pro Stock engines.

Good old CHA. I had a pair of the CHA Aluminum BB Chevy heads for a short while back in the early 1970's. I had them only a short while becuase they became stolen with several other things that got stolen from a break in at that time. I liked them though. I am trying now to remember who started CHA?

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034 Iron Bowtie heads

Postby rustbucket79 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:35 am

maxracesoftware wrote:
Ed-vancedEngines wrote:A little off topic but not by much.

Larry,
Do you have any history on tests of the 034 cast BowTie Heads? I ask this here because I think both the 034 and the 292 Turbo were similar. Am I wrong?

Ed


Ed, i have also a bunch of Flow Data over the years on
the #034's Heads.
There are at least 4or 5 versions of these cast iron 034's in
the years they made them.
the first version is not enlarged outward on exhaust side of casting,
so it looks similar to old 292's or SBC heads except for small exh ports

the second version Chevy enlarged the water jacket side on exhaust/
sparl plug outside..so it has a very noticeable exterior , with more metal
around combustion chamber

the 3rd or 4th version was about the same,
but had a dip in intake flange casting where heat-riser was located

The #034 had a higher Ski-Jump Short Turn
with no water above intake ports + smaller CSA exh ports

i have 2 Band-sawed (1)034 and (2)292 heads i could Post pics of
later


Ed if you asked me that same question about 10 years ago,
i'd now exactly all the specifics :)

i ported a pair of #034's for Benoit's C/ED in 1980's,
according to 3-4 page article in National Dragster "Bayou Bullet"
it was the first C/ED to run in 7 second ET
set Record C/ED at 7.97 ET ??
he later ran 7.80's but not a Points Meet where the record could have
been reset..later switched over to B/ED with Pontiac-Brodix 23deg
raised runner heads 337CID or 338 CID ?? :)


This thread is fast becoming near and dear to my heart as I am currently using a set of these castings, I bought them new from the local GM dealership back in 92/93 and truely cut my teeth porting these heads following "the Grump's" horsepower how to book with it's pictures and literature. (mine have the "pocket" where the crossover would be) I originally did a port match and bowl blend on them, then followed up with narrowing the guide bosses and a full port job. I finally had the opportunity to have one flowed, and it hit 262 CFM on the intake at .550" and flattened out, the exhaust hit 223 CFM at .500" and flattened out. This was at 28" on a 4.125 adapter with no pipe for the exhaust. The exhaust suprised me, the intake was disappointing.

What can be done with the rather large pushrod pinch on these heads without sleeving them? I widened up mine by thinning the common wall as much as I dare and still keep a gasket surface. I had also planned to epoxy a nice gentle radius from the intake entrance to the pushrod pinch, but chickened out due to concerns of the material breaking off and making a mess of the engine.

Do you or anyone else have any other tricks up their sleeves in regards to getting more intake flow out of my heads? The new Dart Platinum aluminums are enticing, but the thought of making my current heads better is also worth looking into, not too many guys in my area running high 10's N/A in a 3600# car with an iron headed small block at 2300' elevation.

I would sure like to get pictures and measurements of the pushrod pinch as long as it doesn't require welding/sleeving/offset rockers to make it happen.

This site ROCKS!
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Postby rmcomprandy » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:23 am

Warren Brownfield ... is he still around also...?
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Postby randy331 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:26 pm

Rustbucket, and others; I, too, am interested in these old castings. You're saying you cut your teeth on these heads brings back memories. A set of 292 heads was the first heads I did a serious port job on. I had also read Grumpy's book. Back in 198? I built a flow bench loosely, using an old hotrod/popular hotrodding article. The bench could measure air flow, but was not calibrated in CFM. I had no idea what my heads flowed when I started or when I finished. I just knew the water in the manometer would go several more inches up the yardstick I had placed beside it for measuring. I knew I was gaining because I kept having to add vacuum motors to pull 28" of water on them. My car had a 377" sbc with a glide and the newer bowtie heads that I had blended the bowl, and opened the pushrod/gasket area. The car ran a best of 10.68 @ 126 mph, usually in the 10.70s with the bowtie heads. I was clueless about port velocity, cross-sectional area, etc. . The 292 heads were ported using only flow bench info, and whatever flowed better I went with. The 292s had bigger chambers and would have reduced compression over the bowties.
This project went on over the winter. In the spring when I switched heads, the converter stalled 300 rpm more than before. When I took it to the track it ran 10.17 @ 133 mph. I was too green about engines to realize I had moved the peak power higher and I probably needed a looser converter and/or shift higher. I still don't know what they flowed but I'll bet it was better than the bowties that came off the car.
Anyway this light bulb went off in my little brain that said air flow matters.
Sorry about the long story, but I thought it may be of some interest to those that have used turbo heads.

Thanks; Randy
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Postby rustbucket79 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:47 pm

Interesting that you made that much improvement with the 292's over the Bowtie's, you probably had considerably more porting time in them.
I couldn't even hazzard a guess in the hours I have tied up into my Bowties, but a good portion of that time is in the entire exhaust port. I recall the exit being no larger than a factory smog casting, similar to what an 882 casting would be like. I used a 1 5/8 round header gasket for a template since the port was basically round to begin with, opening the port up to the full diameter, but other than polishing the port floor it remained untouched to create an anti-reversion dam, creating a sideways "D" port.
I would love to smarten up the intake flow on these heads....
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Postby barnym17 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:15 pm

It's funny to see all this interest in 292 heads I have a set on my emod I bought from a local racer that had them ported in the early 80's somewhere in the Carolina's.I can't get much more info on em but they are hogged out pretty good the ports look just like the pictures in grumpy's book. To this day they are still running with and outrunning the Dart platnums around here that guys have cnc ported by Brezinski.I know they are ancient technology but they still seem to get the job done.
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Postby highVE » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:17 pm

Jim Bell. Thats a great name!! i freshend up a set of his old Dart/buick heads. they had his name tag rivited on the sides of each head.
Is he still out of Cali? Thats what is said on the tags.

I've said this before, but i too have nothing but the utmost respect for the guys dong this many years before i was evan born!! :lol:

Mike Theroux
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Mike Theroux
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There is never enough time!!
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Postby Ricky Mcconathy » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:10 pm

"Big Jim Bell" is still porting heads, and like Ed said, he is currently helping Nickens with their pro stock program. He also works part time at Faerman's Racing Engines in the Houston area. He seems to be doing well, and still has plenty of fire left in him :D
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Turbo heads flow numbers

Postby bigjoe1 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:58 pm

I keep seeing the about the old trubo heads, and I did an engine for my son way back when ( 1978 or so) It was a 4.03 by 3.625 SB Chevt. It made 675 Hp at 8000 RPM. Big roller cam, and an Edelbrock victor ram and (2) 660 carbs. I had to do a lot of searching, but I found a flow sheet. Here are the flow numbers with 2.08 and 1.60 valvers.
300---204----141
400---234----177
500---261----202
600---281----214
700---288----217
800---291----217

These were not originally done on a flow bench, but when I got my bench, I went in and reworked them somemore. JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Postby randy331 » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:39 pm

Rustbucket, others; Yes I had hours and hours in the turbos, and the bowties were just bowl-blended and the pushrod area opened some. It wouldn't be a good turbo-to-bowtie test; more, it showed me how important airflow is, and that the turbos were a pretty good head, especially for its time.

Joe,and others, thanks for taking the time to find this info for me. I am going to do some porting on these, and try them out this summer. I wanted to have some info to compare to. Others with info are still encouraged to post.

Thanks; Randy
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Postby maxracesoftware » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:33 am

#292 Turbo (brand new Heads)
April 9, 1985 brand new out of box pair of #292's
with 2.080/1.600 valves
HeadBolt Tubes 213CC Ports
only 1 Intake Port finished so far
SF-600 Bench 4.000" Bore Fixture
Lift__Intake__Exhaust (with short pipe)
.200_129.3
.300_188.2
.400_236.5
.450_252.3
.500_270.4
.550_279.1
.600_285.4
.650_290.1
.700_297.6
.750_298.8
these Heads brand new..still sitting in corner of FlowBench Room
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... -ST_1b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... rts_1b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... nt_hol.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... rts_1b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... seUp-b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... rts_1b.jpg


#292 Turbo Stock-Shape Sectioned Head
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... Port_1.jpg

#292 Turbo Ported Sectioned Head
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ort_1b.jpg

#292 Turbo Old Jimmy Bell ported,..later highly modified
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ort_1b.jpg


#034 Cast-iron 1st Version by Chevy
Out-of-Box Stock Flow Numbers 2.020/1.600
SF-600 Bench 4.000" Bore Fixture
Lift__Intake__Exhaust
.200__117.9___107.1
.300__169.5___138.7
.400__205.0___145.1
.450__216.6
.500__228.3___145.6
.550__222.1
.600__215.8___147.7
.650__216.8
.700__217.8___147.7

the 1st versions can be made to Flow these following Numbers
SF-600 Bench 4.125" Bore Fixture
2.085/1.585" tulip titanium (all-out Porting, but no welding )
Lift__Intake__Exhaust_(No-Pipe)
.200__138.0___106.7
.300__199.1___150.3
.400__245.6___200.6
.450__263.1
.500__278.7___216.6
.550__289.7
.600__296.1___222.0
.650__302.0
.700__307.5___224.1
.750__311.4
.800__315.8___224.5
.850__319.3
.900__322.5___225.2
.950__324.0
Note=>there is no exhaust outside protrusion of water jacket
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ide_2b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ide_1b.jpg


#034 Cast-iron 2nd Version
now there is added material around Chambers and outside exhaust area protrusion
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... rts_1b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... rts_1b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ill_Ch.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ogo_1b.jpg


#034 Cast-iron final last version which is either 4th or 5th
this should be the 5th version ??
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... Notch_.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ide_1b.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... mber_2.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... mber_1.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287 ... ogo_1b.jpg
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Postby randy331 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:09 am

I've been working on these 292 heads, and I have the intakes flowing 250-255 @.600, and 255-260, @ .700. Someone had done some port work on them before, and took out too much on the short turn where I would have left it. I used a cutter that has a 38*/45*/60*/70*, in some areas the cutter left all the 70*, plus an edge where it ended, in other places it didn't quite leave all of the 60*, even though I cut it to a larger valve (2.05").

The EX is where I have a question. On tthe EX I used a cutter with a 32*/45*/radius. Again someone had allready done some grinding on them, and the cutter didn't leave the full radius all the way around the seat. On the short turn side some places had allmost no radius. I've blended them into the bowl the best I could with what was left, but don't like the shape of the ST. I have them flowing 190-195 cfm @ .600 lift. The problem is when I add a pipe to the EX port, it flows less. I think this is the first time I've had an EX port not flow more with a pipe added. I even tried a couple of headers, and the port still backs up. All 3 I've tested flow less with a pipe. Last night I used a rat tail file to reshape one port a little, I gained a few CFM, but the port still backs up with a pipe.
1- Should I try a 60*, or some sort of angle under the 45*, instead of the radius?
2- Is this common for 292 Ex ports, or is this because of too much removed from the ST?
3- Should I run an undercut on the EX valve? I gain air flow with an undercut on the EX valve, but the port still flows less with a pipe on.
They will be ran on under .550 lift fairly mild engines.
4- Someone had, I guess I'll call it (gasket matched) the exit of the EX ports. They kinda flare out the last 1/4" or so. Could this (racing secret), of gasket matching the ex port to a header gasket cause this backing up problem?? I've moved the pipe around on the port, and it changes the flow some, but it's still less than without a pipe.
Any suggestions?


Thanks for any help, Randy
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